IRC log started Mon Jun 26 00:00:01 2000
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m I agree that getting money involved tends to include some and exclude others.[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m If there is any kind of formal organization there's the issue of politics[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m I guess we can't avoid it forever...[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m and with Fare, everything is about politics[0m
[1;30m[[0;31mmsg[1;30m([1;31mTUNES[1;30m)] [0mpermlog 2000.0626[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m I've been happy with lack of organization, because it allows us to avoid politics altogether...[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i don't want *any* company owning the license to Tunes or "officiating" what tunes is[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m I'm sure that isn't what Fare is up to[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i wouldn't be so sure[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m He's as pro-open-source as anyone. It'd be GPL'ed, definitely[0m
[1;31m-[0m[1;37m:[1;31m-[0m [1;36mcerdog [1;30m[[0;36mhibmudbink@212.143.95.184[1;30m][0m has joined #tunes[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m so?[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m and like Red Hat, no way for the company to control code[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m gpl has nothing to do with policy[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m this is about social perception[0m
[1;31m-[0m[1;37m:[1;31m-[0m cerdog [1;30m[[0mhibmudbink@212.143.95.184[1;30m][0m has left #tunes [1;30m[[1;37m[1;30m][0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m ...[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m go on[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m not much to say... if this goes forward, *his* group will be *the* group that provides sound-bites on what tunes is[0m
[1;30m* [1;33mTril/#tunes [0mlaughs[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m which is bullshit[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m :P[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m I've always thought that *I* will be the one that decides what tunes is :)[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m that's fine for people who don't grok his ideas[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m but i do grok his ideas and know he pitifully mis-represents them[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m Do you have any idea who the other person involved is? The one he is discussing business plans with?[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m Is it David Madore? Basile?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m and will only increase the magnitude of distortion[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i think basile[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m it may be in the logs[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m water: were you going to start a company after your job ends?[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i don't know[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m i was considering college, really[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m since no one respects my ideas atm[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m other than kooks and people who are stuck on ideas they can't distinguish from arrow properly[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m btw, slate discussion lately has avoided the channel entirely[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m icuc[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m hmm'[0m
12:10am
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m Tril: also, the #tunes logs are not properly stripping all the terminal codes... hard to read[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m eihrul yeah any clue how to fix that?[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m not a clue :?[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m it must be a new version of bitchx[0m
[1;34m<[0meihrul[1;34m>[0m s/?/\/[0m
[1;34m<[0mTril[1;34m>[0m let's try (brb)[0m
[1;34m<[0mwater[1;34m>[0m lar's logs seem rather noise-free[0m
IRC log ended Mon Jun 26 00:11:29 2000
IRC log started Mon Jun 26 00:13:15 2000
50[31msg5150(51tunes50)] permlog 2000.0626
51-57:51- BitchX: Unknown command: LOGFILE
32.......................LOGFILE 2000.0626
32........................ACTION %@%K* %W$1 %n$4-
32.....................ACTION_AR %@%K* %Y$1 %n$4-
32................ACTION_CHANNEL %@%K* %Y$1/$3 %n$4-
32..................ACTION_OTHER %@%K* %n>%c$1 %n$3-
32...............ACTION_OTHER_AR %@%K* %y>%c$1 %n$3-
32...................ACTION_USER %@%K* %n>%c$1 %n$3-
32................ACTION_USER_AR %@%K* %y>%c$1 %n$3-
32.........................ALIAS Alias $[20.]0 $1-
32........................ASSIGN Assign $[20.]0 $1-
32..........................AWAY is away: ($3-) $1 $2
32..........................BACK is back from the dead. Gone $1 hrs $2 min $3 secs
32..........................BANS $[2]0 $[10]1 $[10]3 $[-5]numdiff($time() $4)  $2
32...................BANS_FOOTER 
32...................BANS_HEADER #  Channel    SetBy        Sec  Ban
32.........................BITCH %RBitch Mode Activated%n $1 $4 $5 on $3
32...........................BOT $[2]0 $[2]1 $[11]2 $[10]3 $4
32....................BOT_FOOTER There are $1 on the BotList
32....................BOT_HEADER Aop Prot Bot         Channel    Hostname
32.........................BWALL [%GBX-Wall%n/%W$1:$2%n] $4-
32...............CHANNEL_SIGNOFF $G %nSignOff %W$1%n: $3 %K(%n$4-%K)
32......................COMPLETE %K[%n$[15]0%K] [%n$[15]1%K] [%n$[15]2%K] [%n$[15]3%K]
32.......................CONNECT $G Connecting to server $1/%c$2%n
32..........................CSET %r$[-14]1 %R$[-20.]0   %w$2-
32..........................CTCP %K>%n>%W> %G$1 %K[%g$2%K]%g requested $4- from $3
32....................CTCP_CLOAK %K>%n>%W> %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%c requested $4- from $3
32...............CTCP_CLOAK_FUNC %K>%n>%W> %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%c requested $4- from $3
32..........CTCP_CLOAK_FUNC_USER %K>%n>%W> %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%c requested $4- from you
32............CTCP_CLOAK_UNKNOWN %K>%n>%W> %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%c requested unknown ctcp $4- from $3
32.......CTCP_CLOAK_UNKNOWN_USER %K>%n>%W> %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%c requested unknown ctcp $4- from $3
32...............CTCP_CLOAK_USER %K>%n>%W> %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%c requested $4- from you
32.....................CTCP_FUNC %K>%n>%W> %G$1 %K[%g$2%K]%g requested $4- from $3
32................CTCP_FUNC_USER %K>%n>%W> %G$1 %K[%g$2%K]%g requested $4- from you
32....................CTCP_REPLY $G %nCTCP %W$3 %nreply from %n$1: $4-
32..................CTCP_UNKNOWN %K>%n>%W> %G$1 %K[%g$2%K]%g requested unknown ctcp $4- from $3
32.............CTCP_UNKNOWN_USER %K>%n>%W> %G$1 %K[%g$2%K]%g requested unknown ctcp $4- from %g$3
32.....................CTCP_USER %K>%n>%W> %G$1 %K[%g$2%K]%g requested $4- from you
32...........................DCC 
32......................DCC_CHAT %@%K[%G$1%K(%gdcc%K)] %n$3-
32...................DCC_CONNECT $G %RDCC%n $1 with %W$2%K[%c$4:$5%K]%n established
32.....................DCC_ERROR $G %RDCC%n lost %w$1%w %rto $2 %K[%w$3-%K]
32......................DCC_LOST %@$G %RDCC%n %W$1%n:%g$2%n %K[%C$3%K]%n $4 $5 completed in $6 secs %K(%W$7 $8/sec%K)
32...................DCC_REQUEST %@$G %RDCC%n $1 %K(%n$2%K)%n request from %W$3%K[%c$4 [$5:$6]%K]%n $8 $7
32........................DESYNC $G $1 is desynced from $2 at $0
32....................DISCONNECT $G Use %G/Server%n to connect to a server
32.........................EBANS $[2]0 $[10]1 $[10]3 $[-5]numdiff($time() $4)  $2
32..................EBANS_FOOTER 
32..................EBANS_HEADER #  Channel    SetBy        Sec  ExemptBan
32..............ENCRYPTED_NOTICE %@%K-%Y$1%K(%p$2%K)-%n $3-
32.............ENCRYPTED_PRIVMSG %@%K[%Y$1%K(%p$2%K)]%n $3-
32.........................FLOOD %Y$1%n flood detected from %G$2%K(%g$3%K)%n on %K[%G$4%K]
32...................FRIEND_JOIN $G %R$1 %K[%c$2%K]%n has joined $3
32..........................HELP $0-
32..........................HOOK $0-
32.................IGNORE_INVITE %K>%n>%W> You have been invited to $1-
32....................IGNORE_MSG %K[%P$1%P$2%K(%p$3%K)]%n $4-
32...............IGNORE_MSG_AWAY %K[%P$1%P$2%K(%p$3%K)]%n $4-
32.................IGNORE_NOTICE %K-%P$2%K(%p$3%K)-%n $4-
32...................IGNORE_WALL %K%P$1%n $2-
32........................INVITE %K>%n>%W> $1 Invites You to $2-
32...................INVITE_USER %K>%n>%W> Inviting $1 to $2-
32..........................JOIN $G %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%n has joined $3
32..........................KICK $G %n$3 was kicked off $2 by %c$1 %K(%n$4-%K)
32.....................KICK_USER %K>%n>%W> %WYou%n have been kicked off %c$2%n by %c$1 %K(%n$4-%K)
32..........................KILL %K>%n>%W> %RYou have been killed by $1 for $2-
32.......................LASTLOG $strftime($0 %H:%M) $1-
32.........................LEAVE $G $1 %K[%w$2%K]%n has left $3 %K[%W$4-%K]
32.........................LINKS %K|%n$[24]0%K| |%n$[24]1%K| |%n$[3]2%K| |%n$[13]3%K|
32..........................LIST $[12]1 $[-5]2   $[40]3-
32..........................MAIL %K>%n>%W> You've got mail!@#
32..........................MODE $G %nmode%K/%c$3 %K[%W$4-%K]%n by %W$1
32..................MODE_CHANNEL $G %nmode%K/%c$3 %K[%W$4-%K]%n by %W$1
32...........................MSG %@%K[%P$1%K(%p$2%K)]%n $3-
32......................MSGCOUNT [$0-]
32........................MSGLOG [$[8]0] [$1] - $2-
32.....................MSG_GROUP %K-%P$1%K:%p$2%K-%n $3-
32.........................NAMES $G %K[%GUsers%K(%g$1%K:%g$2%K)]%c $3
32..................NAMES_BANNER 
32.....................NAMES_BOT $G %K[%GBots%K(%g$1%K:%g$2%K)]%c $3
32................NAMES_BOTCOLOR %K[%C$0%G$[10]1%K]
32..................NAMES_FOOTER 
32..................NAMES_FRIEND $G %K[%GFriends%K(%g$1%K:%g$2%K)]%c $3
32.............NAMES_FRIENDCOLOR %K[%C$0%Y$[10]1%K]
32...................NAMES_IRCOP $G %K[%GIrcOps%K(%g$1%K:%g$2%K)]%c $3
32...............NAMES_NICKCOLOR %K[%B $[10]1%K]
32...................NAMES_NONOP $G %K[%GNonChanOps%K(%g$1%K:%g$2%K)]%c $3
32......................NAMES_OP $G %K[%GChanOps%K(%g$1%K:%g$2%K)]%c $3
32.................NAMES_OPCOLOR %K[%C$0%n%B$[10]1%K]
32....................NAMES_SHIT $G %K[%MShitUsers%K(%m$1%K:%m$2%K)]%c $3
32...............NAMES_SHITCOLOR %K[%C$0%n%R$[10]1%K]
32...................NAMES_VOICE $G %K[%MVoiceUsers%K(%m$1%K:%m$2%K)]%c $3
32..............NAMES_VOICECOLOR %K[%Mv%B$[10]1%K]
32........................NETADD $G %nAdded: %W$1 $2
32.......................NETJOIN $G %nNetjoined: %W$1 $2
32......................NETSPLIT $G %nNetSplit: %W$1%n split from %W$2 %K[%c$0%K]
32...............NETSPLIT_HEADER 
32......................NICKNAME $G %W$1 %nis now known as %c$3
32................NICKNAME_OTHER $G %W$1 %nis now known as %c$4
32.................NICKNAME_USER %K>%n>%W> %WYou%K(%n$1%K)%n are now known as %c$3
32.....................NICK_AUTO $0:$1-
32.....................NICK_COMP $0:$1-
32......................NICK_MSG $0 $1 $2-
32........................NONICK %W$1%K:%n $3-
32..........................NOTE ($0) ($1) ($2) ($3) ($4) ($5-)
32........................NOTICE %K-%P$1%K(%p$2%K)-%n $3-
32....................NOTIFY_OFF $[10]0 $[35]1 $[-6]2 $[-10]3 $4 $5
32.....................NOTIFY_ON $[10]0 $[35]1 $[-6]2 $[-10]3 $4-
32................NOTIFY_SIGNOFF $G %GSignoff%n by %r$1%K!%r$2%n at $0
32.................NOTIFY_SIGNON $G %GSignon%n by %R$1%K!%R$2%n at $0
32..........................OPER %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%n )s now %Wan%w %GIRC%n whore
32............................OV ,41%S %>50[52Oper57View50,41] 
32.........................PASTE %K[%W$1%K]%n $2-
32........................PUBLIC %@%B<%n$1%B>%n $3-
32.....................PUBLIC_AR %@%B<%Y$1%B>%n $3-
32....................PUBLIC_MSG %@%b(%n$1%K/%n$3%b)%n $4-
32.................PUBLIC_MSG_AR %@%b(%Y$1%K/%Y$3%b)%n $4-
32.................PUBLIC_NOTICE %@%K-%P$1%K:%p$3%K-%n $4-
32..............PUBLIC_NOTICE_AR %@%K-%G$1%K:%g$3%K-%n $4-
32..................PUBLIC_OTHER %@%b<%n$1%K:%n$2%b>%n $3-
32...............PUBLIC_OTHER_AR %@%b<%y$1%K:%n$2%b>%n $3-
32...........................REL %K[%rmsg->$1%K]%n $4-
32..........................RELM %K[%P%P$1%K(%p$2%K)]%n $4-
32..........................RELN %K-%P$1%K(%p$2%K)-%n $4-
32..........................RELS $1-
32.........................RELSM %K[%rmsg%K(%R$1%K)] %n$2-
32.........................RELSN %K[%rnotice%K(%R$1%K)] %n$2-
32...................SEND_ACTION %K* %W$1 %n$3-
32.............SEND_ACTION_OTHER %K* %n-> %W$1%n/%c$2 %n$3-
32.....................SEND_AWAY [Away ($strftime($1 %a %b %d %I:%M%p %Z))] [$tdiff2(${time() - u})] [BX-MsgLog $2]
32.....................SEND_CTCP %K[%rctcp%K(%R$1%K)] %n$2
32.................SEND_DCC_CHAT %K[%rdcc%K(%R$1%K)] %n$2-
32............SEND_ENCRYPTED_MSG %K[%Y$1%K(%p$2%K)]%n $2-
32.........SEND_ENCRYPTED_NOTICE %K-%Y$1%K(%p$2%K)-%n $2-
32......................SEND_MSG %K[%rmsg%K(%R$1%K)] %n$3-
32...................SEND_NOTICE %K[%rnotice%K(%R$1%K)] %n$3-
32...................SEND_PUBLIC %P<%n$2%P>%n $3-
32.............SEND_PUBLIC_OTHER %p<%n$2%K:%n$1%p>%n $3-
32........................SERVER $G%n $1: $2-
32...................SERVER_MSG1 $G%n $1: $2-
32..............SERVER_MSG1_FROM $G%n $1: $2-
32...................SERVER_MSG2 $G%n $1-
32..............SERVER_MSG2_FROM $G%n $1-
32.................SERVER_NOTICE  $2-
32.............SERVER_NOTICE_BOT  Possible bot: %C$1 %K[%c$2-%K]%n
32............SERVER_NOTICE_BOT1  Possible $1 bot: %C$2 %K[%c$3-%K]%n
32.......SERVER_NOTICE_BOT_ALARM  $1 alarm activated: %C$2 %K[%c$3-%K]%n
32..SERVER_NOTICE_CLIENT_CONNECT  Client Connecting: %C$1 %K[%c$2-%K]%n
32.....SERVER_NOTICE_CLIENT_EXIT  Client Exiting: %C$1 %K[%c$2-%K]%n
32..SERVER_NOTICE_CLIENT_INVALID  Invalid username: %C$1 %K[%c$2-%K]%n
32.....SERVER_NOTICE_CLIENT_TERM  Terminating client for excess flood %C$1%K [%c$2-%K]%n
32............SERVER_NOTICE_FAKE  Fake Mode detected on $1 -> $2-
32...........SERVER_NOTICE_GLINE  %W$1%n added a new K-Line %K[%c$2%K]%n from $3 for $4-
32............SERVER_NOTICE_KILL  Foreign OperKill: %W$1%n killed %c$2%n %K(%n$3-%K)%n
32......SERVER_NOTICE_KILL_LOCAL  Local OperKill: %W$1%n killed %c$2%n %K(%n$3-%K)%n
32...........SERVER_NOTICE_KLINE  %W$1%n added a new K-Line %K[%c$2%K]%n for $3-
32...........SERVER_NOTICE_NICKC  Nick collision %W$1%n killed %c$2%n
32............SERVER_NOTICE_OPER  %C$1 %K[%c$2%K]%n is now %Wa%w %GIRC%n whore
32..........SERVER_NOTICE_REHASH  %W$1%n is rehashing the Server config file
32...........SERVER_NOTICE_STATS  Stats $1: %C$2 %K[%c$3-%K]%n
32....SERVER_NOTICE_TRAFFIC_HIGH  Entering high-traffic mode %K(%n$1 > $2-%K)%n
32....SERVER_NOTICE_TRAFFIC_NORM  Resuming standard operation %K(%n$1 $2 $3-%K)%n
32..........SERVER_NOTICE_UNAUTH  Unauthorized Connection from $1-
32...........................SET %g$[-30.]0 %w$1-
32...................SET_NOVALUE %g$[-30.]0 has no value
32......................SHITLIST  $[3]0 $[34]1 $[10]2  $3-
32...............SHITLIST_FOOTER There are $1 users on the shitlist
32...............SHITLIST_HEADER  lvl nick!user@host                     channels   reason
32.......................SIGNOFF $G %nSignOff: %W$1 %K(%n$3-%K)
32.......................SILENCE $G %RWe are $1 silencing $2 at $0
32.........................SMODE $G %RServerMode%K/%c$3 %K[%W$4-%K]%n by %W$1
32........................STATUS %4%W$0-
32.......................STATUS1 %4%W$0-
32.......................STATUS2 %4%W$0-
32.......................STATUS3 %4%W$0-
32.........................TIMER $G $[-5]0 $[-10]1 $[-6]2 $3-
32.........................TOPIC $G Topic %K(%c$1%K):%n $2-
32..................TOPIC_CHANGE $G Topic %K(%c$2%K):%n changed by %c$1%K:%n $3-
32...........TOPIC_CHANGE_HEADER 
32...................TOPIC_SETBY $G Topic %K(%c$1%K):%n set by %c$2%n at %c$stime($3)%n
32...................TOPIC_UNSET $G Topic %K(%c$2%K):%n unset by %c$1%n
32....................TRACE_OPER %R$1%n %K[%n$3%K]
32..................TRACE_SERVER %R$1%n $2 $3 $4 %K[%n$5%K]%n $6-
32....................TRACE_USER %R$1%n %K[%n$3%K]
32.........................USAGE $G Usage: /$0  $1-
32......................USERLIST $[16]0 $[10]1 $[-10]2   $[-25]3 $[10]4
32...............USERLIST_FOOTER There are $1 users on the userlist
32...............USERLIST_HEADER level            nick       password     host                      channels
32......................USERMODE $G %nMode change %K[%W$4-%K]%n for user %c$3
32.........................USERS %K[%n%C$5%B$[9]2%K]%K[%n$[41]3%K]%K[%n$0%K]%n$4
32..................USERS_HEADER 
32....................USERS_SHIT %K[%n%C$5%B$[9]2%K]%K[%n%r$[41]3%K]%K[%n$[-15]0%K]%n$4
32...................USERS_TITLE $G Channel userlist for %W$1%n at ($0):
32....................USERS_USER %K[%n%C$5%B$[9]2%K]%K[%n%B$[41]3%K]%K[%n$0%K]%n$4
32.......................VERSION $0+$4$5 by panasync - $2 $3
32..........................WALL %@%G!%g$1:$2%G!%n $3-
32........................WALLOP %G!%g$1$2%G!%n $3-
32.......................WALL_AR %@%G!%g$1:$2%G!%n $3-
32..................WATCH_SIGNON $G $0!$1@$2 has signed off
32.................WATCH_SIGNOFF $G $0!$1@$2 has signed on $3
32...........................WHO %Y$[10]0 %W$[10]1%w %c$[3]2 %w$3%R@%w$4 ($6-)
32...................WHOIS_ADMIN %K| %Wa%ndmin    : $0 - $1-
32....................WHOIS_AWAY %K| %Wa%nway     : $0 - $1-
32.....................WHOIS_BOT %g| %Wb%not      : A:$0 P:$1 [$2] $3-
32................WHOIS_CHANNELS %g| %Wc%nhannels : $0-
32..................WHOIS_FOOTER 
32..................WHOIS_FRIEND %g| %Wf%nriend   : F:$0 $1-
32..................WHOIS_HEADER %G.--------%g-%G--%g--%G-%g---------%K-%g--%K--%g-%K------------ --  -
32....................WHOIS_HELP %K| %Wh%nelp     : $0 - $1-
32....................WHOIS_IDLE %K: %Wi%ndle     : $0 hours $1 mins $2 secs (signon: $stime($3))
32....................WHOIS_NAME %G: %Wi%nrcname  : $0-
32....................WHOIS_NICK %G| %W$0 %K(%n$1@$2%K) %K(%W$3-%K)
32....................WHOIS_OPER %K| %Wo%nperator : $0 $1-
32................WHOIS_REGISTER %K| %Wr%negister : $0 - $1-
32..................WHOIS_SERVER %K| %Ws%nerver   : $0 ($1-)
32.................WHOIS_SERVICE %K| %Ws%nervice  : $0 - $1-
32....................WHOIS_SHIT %g| %Ws%nhit     : L:$0 [$1] $2 $3-
32..................WHOIS_SIGNON %K| %Ws%nignon   : $0-
32................WHOLEFT_FOOTER 
32................WHOLEFT_HEADER %G.----- %WWho %G-----%g---%G---%g--%G-----%g--%G-- %WChannel%g--- %wServer %G-%g----%G--%g--%G----%g %wSeconds
32..................WHOLEFT_USER %G|%n $[-10]0!$[20]1 $[10]2 $[20]4 $3
32.................WHOWAS_HEADER %G.--------%g-%G--%g--%G-%g---------%K-%g--%K--%g-%K------------ --  -
32...................WHOWAS_NICK %G| %W$0%n was %K(%n$1@$2%K)
32......................WIDELIST $1-
32....................WINDOW_SET $0-
32...................XTERM_TITLE 
32...........................381 %K>%n>%W> You are now an %GIRC%n whore
32...........................471 $G [$1] Channel is full
32...........................473 $G [$1] Invite only channel
32...........................474 $G [$1] Banned from channel
32...........................475 $G [$1] Bad channel key
32...........................476 $G [$1] You are not opped
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54<water54> you might want to turn off the logging while you tool around, tril ;)
12:20am
IRC log ended Mon Jun 26 00:22:49 2000
51-57:51- Starting logfile 2000.0626
IRC log started Mon Jun 26 00:23:20 2000
51-57:51- Value of LOG set to ON
54<Tril54> well..i'm not going to fix it right now..the best solution would be a custom bot that does nothing but logging. I can't find one, so maybe I will have to write one.
54<Tril54> I dont see why hcf hasn't found one yet
54<water54> um Brianna?
54<water54> hcf hasn't been around at all
51-57:51- 56queasshon 50[36opcseyyugi@212.143.95.1845650] has joined #tunes
54<Tril54> what's Brianna/lar1's logs?
54<water54> hi
54<water54> what are they?
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54<Tril54> are they the same thing? I dont know what either of them are.
54<water54> they are the same thing
54<Tril54> If lar1 has good logs, why dont we use them instead of what I am doing?
54<water54> heh
54<water54> he doesn't log #tunes
54<water54> go to #{}
54<water54> brianna is the logger
54<water54> not lar1
54<water54> hosted on bespin, actually :)
54<Tril54> well I'll ask him about it .. looks like he is asleep. what I should be doing.
54<Tril54> i'll be back..
54<water54> ok
51-57:51- SignOff 57Tril: #tunes 50(bye50)
12:30am
54<lar154> Is he going to be back tonight?
54<water54> not likely
54<water54> mail him
54<lar154> How about I just bring Bri in here?
54<water54> hm
54<water54> sure, it can't harm anything
54<lar154> Ok
51-57:51- 56Brianna 50[36lar1@bespin.dhs.org5650] has joined #tunes
54<lar154> There ya be
54<water54> thx
54<lar154> np
01:00am
51-57:51- 56palby 50[36rgtfsdxueq@212.143.95.1845650] has joined #tunes
54<water54> hi palby
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54<water54> it's that damned script again
54<lar154> Pardon?
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o water50] by 57ChanServ
54<water54> this script is set up to join and part random channels at a time with random nicks etc
54<water54> it's been happening for about a week now
54<lar154> Lame
54<water54> i thought i banned it properly earlier today, but i'll fiddle with the settings to see if i can fix that
54<water54> hm random ip's and everything
54<water54> whatever it is, it's creator is pretty clever
54<eihrul54> well, maybe he has a dynamic ip...
54<water54> the whole ip was different
54<water54> every digit
54<water54> that's not the same as your usual dynamic ip, is it?
54<eihrul54> nope, i'm 216.x.x.x
54<water54> yeah, like i said, every digit changed
54<lar154> Is it possible to spoof that?
01:20am
54<water54> i don't know
01:30am
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54<water54> same ip that time, totally different set of channels
54<water54> no wait, same channels
54<lar154> How can you tell what channels its joining?
54<water54> nm
54<water54> whois
54<water54> there was only one channel in common that time
54<water54> other than tunes
01:40am
51-57:51- 56billh 50[36billh@cx739861-a.dt1.sdca.home.com5650] has joined #tunes
54<billh54> Hello.
54<water54> hey bill
54<billh54> What's up water ?
54<billh54> I was at Usenix all last week.
54<water54> just working out slate stuff with eihrul
54<water54> ok
54<billh54> Yeah, how's it going ?
54<billh54> Yeah, I might get a job at SGI because of it.
54<billh54> or BSDI.
54<water54> details of implementation
54<water54> really good nit-picking
02:00am
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54<water54> script
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54<water54> hm
02:10am
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54<water54> g'nite
51-57:51- SignOff 57water: #tunes 50(The Tao went that-a-way!50)
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02:30am
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54<ProGuy54> Hi!
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03:40am
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51-57:51- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by pohl.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org])
51-57:51- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success
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51-57:51- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0]
51-57:51- PING  Register first.(from forward.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about
51-57:51- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from forward.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- Your host is forward.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from forward.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12:02:19 EDT (from forward.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- forward.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
51-57:51- 50[local users on irc50(9350)] 9%
51-57:51- 50[global users on irc50(47350)] 48%
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51-57:51- 50[total users on irc50(98750)]
51-57:51- 50[unknown connections50(050)]
51-57:51- 50[total servers on irc50(3050)] 50(avg. 32 users per server50)
51-57:51- 50[total channels created50(41350)] 50(avg. 2 users per channel50)
52[openprojects]  Highest connection count: 145 (143 clients)
52[openprojects]  Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 5 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
51-57:51- Mode change 50[57+f50] for user 36TUNES
51-57:51- Your default nick is already in use 
51-57:51- Mode change 50[57+iws50] for user 36TUNES
51-57:51- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org "
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51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.arrow.cx/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial || Zope Review Database: http://zope.tunes.org/Review/
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): set by 36water at 36Sat Jun 24 16:10:08 2000
51-57:51- 50[52Users50(32#tunes5250:3285250)]36 
50[54 TUNES     50] 50[54 ProGuy    50] 50[54 KingNato  50] 50[54 Brianna   50] 50[54 smoke     50] 
50[54 lar1      50] 50[54 I440r     50] 50[54 coreyr    50] 
51-57:51- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
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34<dalvarez50:#tunes34> beginning with file 2000.0616 the logs contain tons of something like escapes. what is their purpose?
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34<smoke50:#tunes34> http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/nextgen/technology/csharpintro.asp
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> billh likes java
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> billh: is C# better than java?
34<billh50:#tunes34> you one EFNet?
34<billh50:#tunes34> Yeah, I was given this observation that Java is dying.
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> "you one EFNet?" ??
34<billh50:#tunes34> are you on EFNet ?
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> oh, not atm
34<billh50:#tunes34> Because I'm in a thread about this stuff on #java.
34<smoke50:#tunes34> interesting
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34<water50:#tunes34> re all
34<water50:#tunes34> damn it, that script is at it still!
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34<washort50:#tunes34> anyone know where i can get Vortex (the Cecil compiler)? hobbes.cs.washington.edu doesn't seem to be accepting anon users
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> its free?
34<water50:#tunes34> eihrul would, i suppose
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah it's supposed to be, i thought
34<washort50:#tunes34> eihrul: it should be, i think
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> google for it
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> its on the very first hit
34<washort50:#tunes34> eihrul: i know
34<water50:#tunes34> wash: why interested in vortex?
34<washort50:#tunes34> eihrul: the link from there doesn't work :)
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: because cecil is a nifty language
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: prototypes + multimethods = cool, not to mention predicate objects
34<water50:#tunes34> i guess
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> sure, but isn't it static?
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: lack of MOP isn't all that great, of course...
34<washort50:#tunes34> eihrul: optional static typing
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> washort: send them a mail asking for it
34<water50:#tunes34> (access i mean)
34<washort50:#tunes34> eihrul: pretty good static typing too, from what i can see - F-bounded polymorphism, etc
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: yeah, that's probably the best idea
34<water50:#tunes34> i really should go talk to those guys
34<washort50:#tunes34> "Cecil supports the view that static type checking is a useful tool for programmers willing to add extra annotation to their programs, but that all static efficiently-decidable checking techniques are ultimately limited on power, and programmers should not be constrained by the inherent limitations of static type checking."
34<water50:#tunes34> washort: yeah we're used to measuring languages only in terms of tunes-worthiness
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: Understandable.
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: the TUNES Review has helped a lot for more mundane purposes, too. :)
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm gonna contact someone at UW before signing up for this VL2000 conference
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> you should make someone go with you
34<water50:#tunes34> from uw?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> yeah
34<water50:#tunes34> we'll see
34<water50:#tunes34> i did meet a professor into VR
34<water50:#tunes34> although he was unaware of craig chambers and such with self
34<water50:#tunes34> i'll have to apply for vacation for this
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> yeah
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> i was wondering if youd get stuck on a ship
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> so i didnt even mention it not to jinx it
34<water50:#tunes34> i can get out of it
34<water50:#tunes34> there are certain strings that can be pulled
34<water50:#tunes34> hm who to contact
34<water50:#tunes34> heh people who got degrees before my parents got married? :)
34<water50:#tunes34> (my parents are rather old)
34<water50:#tunes34> should i go for craig chambers, do you suppose?
34<water50:#tunes34> i don't even know if he's attending
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> sheesh... you're just gonna go straight for the big dudes, eh? :)
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> he doesn't seem very active lately
34<washort50:#tunes34> eihrul: why not? :)
51-57:51- SignOff 57billh: #tunes 50(My damn controlling terminal disappeared!50)
34<water50:#tunes34> which qualifies him as an EX-big dude
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> maybe he's under NDA somewhere >:)
34<water50:#tunes34> *shudder*
34<water50:#tunes34> do you suppose he's behind c#?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> i'd hope not...
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> going from Cecil to C# is a stretch
34<water50:#tunes34> people are really biased towards M$ here
34<water50:#tunes34> they have no idea how much they are brainwashed by the presence of big money
34<water50:#tunes34> EMP for example, but i digress
34<water50:#tunes34> i wonder what people are aroung the CSE dept in the summer
34<water50:#tunes34> s/aroung/around/
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> same way here... except towards gambling
34<washort50:#tunes34> C# is an amusing joke. :)
34<water50:#tunes34> heh that's different from M$ stock speculation?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah Objective C seems much better
34<water50:#tunes34> but since *everyone* uses visual studio :P
34<water50:#tunes34> forget it, i'll go read
34<washort50:#tunes34> water: well, that's like debating which end of the hammer you want to hit your fingers with
34<water50:#tunes34> heh that reminds me of the programming language comparison where you shoot yourself in the foot :)
34<washort50:#tunes34> yeah :)
34<washort50:#tunes34> Objective C: You shoot yourself in the foot, but the gun is a whole lot lighter than with C++.
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, heavier gun can mean less recoil :)
34<water50:#tunes34> no, c++ is heavy like a train cannon
34<water50:#tunes34> and the programmer has to man all the stations himself :)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, yeah
34<washort50:#tunes34> and then he has to make sure to run around front to get shot
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
51-57:51- 56Fare 50[36fare@193.251.37.245650] has joined #Tunes
34<water50:#tunes34> hey fare
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> lo
50* >36Fare #Tunes is _very_ tired
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> setting up the network for this lame startup...
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> (not yet the tunes startup)
34<water50:#tunes34> what a valuable way to spend your time :P
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> (ought to have eventually become it, but I'll look for betterassociates)
34<washort50:#tunes34> hey fare.
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> also trying to cruise a geekgirl
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> but she's no easy girl
34<washort50:#tunes34> that's the best kind (non-easy) :)
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> my dad waited 10 years, but he started younger
34<washort50:#tunes34> hmm
34<washort50:#tunes34> guess i better start waiting now
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> not passive wait, tho
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> software problems are horrible; hardware problems are worse.
34<washort50:#tunes34> Fare: we can at least expect hardware to get faster. =)
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34<Terralthra50:#tunes34> Anyone alive?
34<Fare50:#Tunes34> not
34<Terralthra50:#tunes34> Finished paper is on my homepage at http://members.home.com/terralthra/
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> Terralthra: is decent enough :)
34<Terralthra50:#tunes34> Thank you.
34<Terralthra50:#tunes34> Would be pleased to have any comments by e-mail, guestbook or IRc
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34<billh50:#tunes34> Hello
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> hey
34<billh50:#tunes34> eihrul What's up ?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> nuffin' much
34<billh50:#tunes34> I've decided that SSA form is what I need to learn and I'm just now hitting that material. ;-)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> ah
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50* >36eihrul #tunes is going to represent expressions internally as trees.
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> as opposed to sequences
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> what particular reason?
34<water50:#tunes34> the apply basis?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, because the tree form makes it easier to manipulate expressions :)
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> i thought you might have a more specific example
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> at this time, no
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> i'm an intuitional kinda guy :)
34<water50:#tunes34> hm people get ignored for saying things like that
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> definitely
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> but at this point, i have a captive audience :)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> being that i'm implementing it >:)
34<water50:#tunes34> i suppose
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34<water50:#tunes34> but i'm one of the few who is aware of that ;)
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o water50] by 57ChanServ
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+b *!*@212.150.38.15250] by 57water
51-57:51- davness was kicked off #tunes by 36water 5650(davness50)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> hmm, was that the right guy?
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<water50:#tunes34> er...
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57-b *!*@212.150.38.15250] by 57water
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57-b *!*@199.203.59.*50] by 57water
34<water50:#tunes34> we'll see
34<water50:#tunes34> that had 97% correspondence to the scripteer
34<water50:#tunes34> yep it's the one
34<water50:#tunes34> varying the pattern a little
34<water50:#tunes34> vpl papers are soooo bloated in size ;)
34<water50:#tunes34> heh lynn maxson strikes again
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> oh, that reminds me
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> i just starting reading that mail, but got distracted :)
34<water50:#tunes34> can he say things which could possibly be more empty of meaning?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> like i said, he'd work out nicely for a marketting department
34<water50:#tunes34> of course Fare is so busy that he will never have time to respond to the idiot
34<water50:#tunes34> so we'll just have to let him run out of steam i suppose
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, has fare even taken a stance on lmaxson?
34<water50:#tunes34> i don't suppose he's ever considered that every programming language ever created is a specification language
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0627
34<water50:#tunes34> i don't think he's aware of lynn
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> being the official tunes ambassador?
34<water50:#tunes34> fare's not aware of much at all
34<water50:#tunes34> other than the sad state of french socialism
34<water50:#tunes34> <water> i don't suppose he's ever considered that every programming language ever created is a specification language
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0627
34<water50:#tunes34> sorry, i wanted to emphasize that and not let it die
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> yep
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> "then we have to insure that we have put them there."
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> uh, is that not what tunes is all about? :)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> precisely that process?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> and yet he's arguing against it?
34<water50:#tunes34> he thinks we're idiots
34<water50:#tunes34> too bad we're annoyed by him
34<water50:#tunes34> i wonder if this script thing knows to avoid channels with operators
50* >36water #tunes is obviously not ready to concentrate tonight
34<water50:#tunes34> i think i'll just finish reading pldi
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> okay, now that he's effectively repeated his rant 3 times...
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> where's his proof of a working tunes-like system?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> even if people thought his idea had merit
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> he would get as much support from tunes as well, anyone else :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<water50:#tunes34> 100 people out there hear rants on tunes and hit the 'delete' key
34<water50:#tunes34> so anyway
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> okay
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> its him
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> ban at will
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34<billh50:#tunes34> water give me a good name for my JIT core that I'm building.
34<billh50:#tunes34> eihrul You too. ;-)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> rmm, i already have a name :P
34<billh50:#tunes34> what ?
34<lar150:#tunes34> water:  Is it best to modify the current Squeak IRC code, or create another class anew?
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34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> hello Noon
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34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> what's up with the logs?
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> Kyle_L: it doesn't strip the BX colorification
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> I saw that, it looked like the stuff from my x86 bbs days.
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> What should I use to view it?
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> hrrm, for some reason, the latest files are completely broken
34<bineng50:#tunes34> Hmm, "Toogam is using up 1 0x1.4e0c7bffff03cp-895s much space as everyone else combined!" ?
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34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> dl a file and then run: sed "s/\[[^m]*m//g" <file>
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34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> hmm, sed "s/\[[01][^m]*m//g" <file> is probably better
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> thanks
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34<rares50:#tunes34> hey wasdhort
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34<water50:#tunes34> re all
34<I440r50:#tunes34> hrm wheres fare ???
34<I440r50:#tunes34> #forth isnt the same without him idling in there:P
34<water50:#tunes34> as if we would have the answer for that :P
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> he's off idling in a different sense probably
34<water50:#tunes34> i gotta ask the obvious question...
34<water50:#tunes34> has lynn maxson ever heard of goedel's theorem?
34<I440r50:#tunes34> hehe
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> he seems to think just because "everything is 100% defined in logic" that it is immune
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> or rather, that seems to be the gyst there
34<water50:#tunes34> yes there is lots of faerie dust in his explanations
34<water50:#tunes34> grrr
34<water50:#tunes34> he has some serious gaul
34<water50:#tunes34> er... gall
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> dern it... its a shame i can't get access to cecil
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> it would be fun to make the slate interpreter in it (since it compiles to a normal executable)
34<water50:#tunes34> why doesn't he just say explicitly that he thinks we're total morons
34<water50:#tunes34> ?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, because i think he believes in what he's saying :)
34<water50:#tunes34> i know he does
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> the derned cecil ftp has no anonymous ftp access
34<water50:#tunes34> mail the administrators
34<water50:#tunes34> "believes in" suggests faith, you know :P
51-57:51- 56BEERmu 50[36rob@c637229-a.clmba1.mo.home.com5650] has joined #tunes
34<water50:#tunes34> hi
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> okay
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> sent them mail
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> and subscribed to cecil mailing list for kicks :)
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> this is more email than i've written in months... :)
34<water50:#tunes34> i figured as much
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o water50] by 57ChanServ
34<water50:#tunes34> what's up with the logs?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> terminal codes aren't getting stripped
34<water50:#tunes34> yes but now i can't even look at them
34<water50:#tunes34> and apparently today's logs do not exist
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, i could make a small program to try and strip them if you want
34<water50:#tunes34> that doesn't solve the fact that the logs are completely unavailable, though ;)
34<water50:#tunes34> although the modtunes logger is still kicking :)
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> re
34<water50:#tunes34> you left?
34<water50:#tunes34> anything you want to talk about?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> not atm
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> eih: we can make the "meta" references linear by simply isolating it to "parent" references between MO's
34<water50:#tunes34> s/it/the nonlinearity of reference/
34<water50:#tunes34> which amounts to requiring every MO to operate on only one object
34<water50:#tunes34> hm maybe not
34<water50:#tunes34> since you could introduce proxies that satisfy the condition of keeping meta references linear
34<water50:#tunes34> and handle the collection of objects that an MO implements in a single object anyway
34<water50:#tunes34> bah, it doesn't matter that much
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34<water50:#tunes34> grrrr
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm thank you kyle
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> that's a first
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<td50:#tunes34> hey water, hows slate coming?
34<water50:#tunes34> as best i can
34<td50:#tunes34> heh.
34<water50:#tunes34> i have no weekends any more
34<td50:#tunes34> why not
34<water50:#tunes34> work, of course
34<td50:#tunes34> oh.
34<water50:#tunes34> a friend of mine wrote his congressmen just yesterday about it
34<water50:#tunes34> i doubt it will do any good
34<td50:#tunes34> heh my guess is no
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm in the nuclear navy, fyi
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah thats right
34<td50:#tunes34> thought it was something to do w/ navy
34<water50:#tunes34> 80-hour work weeks just because they feel like it
34<td50:#tunes34> ouch
34<water50:#tunes34> exactly
34<td50:#tunes34> i need to read the mailing lists again
34<water50:#tunes34> why?
34<td50:#tunes34> haven't been following tunes for bout a month or two now
34<td50:#tunes34> well resubscribe to them at least
34<water50:#tunes34> there's nothing new other than rude newbies and Fare's startup
34<td50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> which is looking more and more like an illusion
34<td50:#tunes34> fun
34<water50:#tunes34> slate's syntax has changed
34<td50:#tunes34> oh?
34<water50:#tunes34> and eihrul's supposed to be working on an interpreter
34<td50:#tunes34> neat
34<water50:#tunes34> theoretically, yes
34<td50:#tunes34> using lisp?
34<water50:#tunes34> no, i think he decided to shift to c++
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> but it doesn't matter unless he makes something that works
50* >36eihrul #tunes is having an interesting discussion on implementing persistence on efnet #lisp.
34<washort50:#tunes34> hehe :)
34<water50:#tunes34> too bad i can't get  onto efnet
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> water: well, if i can get vortex, i just might implement it in cecil :)
34<water50:#tunes34> no wait it works again
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> i'll believe it when i see it
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> wha?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> bad idea? :)
34<water50:#tunes34> no
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm saying i'll believe it'll get implemented *at all* when i see it
34<td50:#tunes34> is the syntax on the web page updated yet?
34<water50:#tunes34> the tutorial has a bit of it
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> oh, ok :)
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah. i think i read that
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> water: That's reasonable
34<water50:#tunes34> recently?
34<td50:#tunes34> didn't you have a mock interactive um, emulator
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah but it had the old syntax
34<water50:#tunes34> the new syntax is ()-less
34<td50:#tunes34> ah. thats probably what i read.. about a week ago
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34<water50:#tunes34> :P
34<water50:#tunes34> i just replied to lmaxson on the list
34<water50:#tunes34> i think i could have reduced it to "shut up and ask questions!"
34<water50:#tunes34> since i doubt he'll listen to anything
34<td50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> what a waste of my time
34<td50:#tunes34> that bad eh?
34<water50:#tunes34> huh?
34<td50:#tunes34> the list
34<water50:#tunes34> no, lmaxson
34<water50:#tunes34> the 70-year old ibm programmer
34<td50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> the guy who pulled his head out of the mainframe 5 years ago
34<water50:#tunes34> after about 33 years with his head stuck *in* it
34<td50:#tunes34> lol
34<water50:#tunes34> who thinks he groks more than tunes does just by reading one book
34<water50:#tunes34> fuck him
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> 33 + 5 == 44?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> funny math there :)
34<water50:#tunes34> whatever
34<water50:#tunes34> i remember him saying that he worked at ibm for 33
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> lighten up :P
34<water50:#tunes34> sorry, i'm stressing
34<water50:#tunes34> i spend 2/3 of my day by necessity away from home
34<water50:#tunes34> no choice
34<water50:#tunes34> and working on databases is really monotonous
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> yes, most people hate it
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> (that i've talked to)
34<water50:#tunes34> i keep thinking that this or that would be so much simpler and more flexible in smalltalk
34<water50:#tunes34> but it doesn't matter, of course
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0628
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0628
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+b *!*@212.143.95.18050] by 57water
51-57:51- SignOff 57washort: #tunes 50(Ping timeout for washort[d102.narrowgate.net]50)
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34<td50:#tunes34> time for sleep.  be back tomorrow hopefully
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34<water50:#tunes34> http://www-agce.informatik.uni-kl.de/~kuehne/fps/
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> wuzzat?
34<water50:#tunes34> describes how to to fp-oriented thing in an oo lang
34<water50:#tunes34> damn it, it's not online
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> its a book, eek
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51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o water50] by 57ChanServ
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o I440r50] by 57water
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57-o I440r50] by 57water
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o eihrul50] by 57water
34<water50:#tunes34> damn i'm tired
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o coreyr50] by 57water
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57-o water50] by 57water
51-57:51- SignOff 57water: #tunes 50(The Tao went that-a-way!50)
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34<lar150:#tunes34> Mmmm.... Squeak
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34<water50:#tunes34> http://www.merlintec.com/selfvmdoc/
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51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o water50] by 57ChanServ
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51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+b *!*@pool0146.cvx19-bradley.dialup.earthlink.net50] by 57water
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57-b *!*@212.143.95.18050] by 57water
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> hmm, maybe we should move tunes irc?
34<water50:#tunes34> where to?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> to a dedicated server off bespin maybe?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57-o water50] by 57water
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34<water50:#tunes34> hey kyle
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> hi water
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): changed by 36water5650: TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.arrow.cx/slate-home.html || Water over the bridge! :)
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34<water50:#tunes34> slate discussion in #{} again :P
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0629
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0629
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34<billh50:#tunes34> Hello
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> hey
34<billh50:#tunes34> what's up ?
34<billh50:#tunes34> I've been reading shit loads of compiler theory and getting confused at the volume of material. ;-)
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51-57:51- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by forward.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org])
51-57:51- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success
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51-57:51- BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about
51-57:51- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lackey.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- Your host is lackey.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lackey.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12:02:19 EDT (from lackey.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- lackey.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
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51-57:51- 50[total channels created50(39650)] 50(avg. 2 users per channel50)
52[openprojects]  Highest connection count: 62 (61 clients)
52[openprojects]  Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14).
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51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.arrow.cx/slate-home.html || Water over the bridge! :)
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): set by 36water at 36Wed Jun 28 20:15:06 2000
51-57:51- 50[52Users50(32#tunes5250:3275250)]36 
50[54 TUNES     50] 50[54 coreyr    50] 50[54 eihrul    50] 50[54 Kyle_L    50] 50[54 XeF4      50] 
50[54 I440r     50] 50[54 lar1      50] 
51-57:51- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
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50* 53coreyr/#tunes is away: gaming
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54<water54> re all
06:30pm
54<water54> abi: openjit is a Java-native JIT compiler project at http://www.openjit.org/
50* 53eihrul/#tunes looks.
54<eihrul54> "reflective"?
54<water54> yeah well it's self-hosted :P
54<eihrul54> isn't this basically Jalapeno 2? :)
54<water54> yep
07:00pm
54<eihrul54> well, if reflection is a buzz-word now...
54<eihrul54> maybe it'll attract venture capital :)
54<water54> don't say things like that, it's frightening :)
07:10pm
54<eihrul54> except
54<eihrul54> Jalapeno is better
54<water54> ok i didn't look closely enough
54<eihrul54> they're doing code generation in C
54<water54> ah
54<water54> geez... filtering through 340k of mail today was annoying
07:20pm
54<water54> icac i'm re-reading alttlg
07:30pm
54<water54> "Alan Kay insists that most of computer science can be mastered in one year of close attention. " -1971
54<washort54> alan kay is an interesting person. :)
54<water54> yeah but he ain't rich
54<washort54> in 1971 it may have been true. =)
54<washort54> water: so? bill gates *is*. :)
54<water54> it probably was true
54<water54> i wonder if i should introduce forth meta-compiler-style slate to the mailing list
54<water54> you know... in cases like that, i really wonder if it would *ever* be desirable to "backtrack" all the way to the beginning of an expression using "."
54<water54> this is only significant in the idea that namespace access might not always best be fitted to a low-level stack
08:00pm
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54<water54> this paper is really tough on the eyes to read
54<eihrul54> yeah
54<eihrul54> postscript would be nice
50* 53water/#tunes tries it in lynx
54<water54> hey there *is* .ps.gz
54<water54> http://www.cb1.com/~john/thesis/
54<water54> screw that green-text-on-black bullshit
51-57:51- SignOff 57Kyle_L: #tunes 50(Leaving50)
50* 53eihrul/#tunes gives water an e-cookie.
54<water54> heh
54<eihrul54> enjoy it, its chocolate silicon chip
50* 53water/#tunes munches on the e-cookie.... mmm .... cookie
54<water54> heh
54<water54> hm the page numbering is a bit... odd...
08:40pm
54<eihrul54> well, better than having all pages side-ways and the pages in backwards order
54<water54> yeah those suck :)
54<eihrul54> is the left part of all pages chopped off for you too?
54<water54> for this paper? not that i've noticed
54<water54> the DSC header stuff is messed up though
54<eihrul54> hmm, it is for me
54<eihrul54> doh
08:50pm
54<water54> hm the difference between evaluator and interpreter
54<water54> "an abstraction for languages"
54<water54> (5.7 .... pg 88 for reference)
54<eihrul54> there is no page 88 :)
54<eihrul54> just swdv
54<water54> whatever
54<water54> swdvi[88]
09:00pm
54<water54> this paper is very lisp-oriented, me-thinks
54<water54> ooh
54<water54> environments as hash-tables
54<water54> yeah i know, not novel
09:10pm
54<eihrul54> well, dats a slate thing
54<water54> slate expressions are interesting in their shape
54<water54> you follow this path around to get stuff done, and each part of the path was built out of a previous path
54<water54> ideally, it's pretty orthogonal
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54<water54> "in a language in which all calls are by value, it is not possible to implement a flow control construct using a procedure written in that language(at that level of interpretation) except by quoting its arguments - in which case the new construct is not on a par with those initially built into the language
54<water54> "
54<water54> from pg.127, sect.8.3
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54<eihrul54> yeah
54<eihrul54> but you'd have the same problems with strict call by reference i'd imagine as well
09:20pm
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54<water54> hm
54<water54> this paper looks so much different now than it did ~2 years ago :)
09:50pm
54<eihrul54> bit rot
54<eihrul54> must be bit rot
54<water54> heh
10:10pm
51-57:51- SignOff 57_Gadget_: #tunes 50(The cheese stands alone.50)
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54<water54> "higher-dimensional towers"
50* 53eihrul/#tunes needs to finish reading that tonight now that he has it in readable form.
11:00pm
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51-57:51- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lackey.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org])
51-57:51- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success
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51-57:51- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Connection refused
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51-57:51- Your nick 51[TUNES51] is owned by 57tunes@bespin.dhs.org
51-57:51- BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about
51-57:51- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES_ (from fastlane.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- Your host is fastlane.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from fastlane.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- This server was cobbled together Thu May 18 2000 at 09:32:42 CDT (from fastlane.openprojects.net)
51-57:51- fastlane.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv 
51-57:51- 50[local users on irc50(10250)] 10%
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51-57:51- 50[total users on irc50(97250)]
51-57:51- 50[unknown connections50(050)]
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51-57:51- 50[total channels created50(37850)] 50(avg. 2 users per channel50)
52[openprojects]  Highest connection count: 144 (127 clients)
52[openprojects]  Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 5 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
51-57:51- Mode change 50[57+f50] for user 36TUNES_
51-57:51- Mode change 50[57+iws50] for user 36TUNES_
51-57:51- JOIN activated by "TUNES_ #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org "
51-57:51- 56TUNES_ 50[36tunes@bespin.dhs.org5650] has joined #tunes
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.arrow.cx/slate-home.html || Water over the bridge! :)
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): set by 36water at 36Wed Jun 28 20:15:09 2000
51-57:51- 50[52Users50(32#tunes5250:3295250)]36 
50[54 TUNES_    50] 50[54 smoke     50] 50[54 td        50] 50[54 I440r     50] 50[54 eihrul    50] 
50[54 TUNES     50] 50[54 abi       50] 50[54 washort   50] 50[54 lar1      50] 
51-57:51- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0630
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0630
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34<billh50:#tunes34> Hello
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51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): changed by 36ChanServ5650: http://tunes.org/
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50* >36coreyr #tunes is back
50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: sleep
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34<XeF450:#tunes34> url for the latest Slate docs?
51-57:51- SignOff 57eihrul: #tunes 50([x]chat50)
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50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: busy
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50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: work, errands
51-57:51- 56morton 50[36unknown@ACA72FA4.ipt.aol.com5650] has joined #tunes
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34<billh50:#tunes34> Hello
51-57:51- SignOff 57morton: #tunes 50(Read error to morton[ACA72FA4.ipt.aol.com]: Connection reset by peer50)
51-57:51- 56water 50[36water@tnt-10-116.tscnet.net5650] has joined #tunes
34<water50:#tunes34> re for a bit
34<water50:#tunes34> hm the tunes newbies come out of the woodworks to display a total lack of understanding
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> So it was, so it is, and so it shall be!
34<water50:#tunes34> lynn has claimed knowledge of ai methods, but he demonstrates very little understanding of the theory
34<water50:#tunes34> what an idiot
34<water50:#tunes34> it's a good thing i'm just going to go out and have some fun tonight
34<water50:#tunes34> lord knows i don't have a weekend or holiday to speak of
34<water50:#tunes34> s/lord/void/
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> yeah, nasty habit i'm trying to kick myself
34<water50:#tunes34> what habit is that?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> using "lord" or variants thereof to connote an exclamation of sorts
34<water50:#tunes34> "The question really is in deciding between a specification language and a programming language. "
34<water50:#tunes34> -lynn maxson
34<water50:#tunes34> i think someone needs to address this fallacy
50* >36water #tunes eyes eihrul
50* >36eihrul #tunes eyes the ceiling.
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> its not like i have any more formal education than he does either :)
34<water50:#tunes34> maybe, but do you see the fallacy?
34<water50:#tunes34> can you point it out to him?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, in that, in all my experience, i've not found much of a difference between the two? :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<water50:#tunes34> throw in the lisp and tunes perspective
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> but then again, i have no more right to be arguing about specification languages than he does about programming languages :)
34<water50:#tunes34> maybe
34<water50:#tunes34> but it's still a fallacy that there's a difference
34<water50:#tunes34> especially to the tunes perspective
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, yes
50* >36water #tunes just scraps the rest of the incoming mail and gets ready to go back out
51-57:51- 56Kyle_L 50[36kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com5650] has joined #Tunes
34<water50:#tunes34> re kyle
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> looks busy here eh.
34<water50:#tunes34> no, it isn't
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> :)
34<water50:#tunes34> and i plan on leaving soon
34<water50:#tunes34> 80 hours of work a week with no weekends or holidays is killing me
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> that is many hours per week, I can't imagine it with anytime free.
34<water50:#tunes34> but of course i must document slate for all those tunesers
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> yes, please do.  ;)
34<water50:#tunes34> screw you
34<water50:#tunes34> (no offense)
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm about to fly apart at the seams
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> I like people with a sense of humour
34<water50:#tunes34> i miss having friends, desperately
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> What!  The tunes people don't do?  ;)
51-57:51- SignOff 57water: #tunes 50(The Tao went that-a-way!50)
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> (please forgive my unusual mood)
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> oh.
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> Who else is here.
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> ?
50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: j-e-l-l-o shots
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> noone
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> hmmm
51-57:51- SignOff 57eihrul: #tunes 50([x]chat50)
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51-57:51- SignOff 57billh: #tunes 50(My damn controlling terminal disappeared!50)
50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: sleep
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0701
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0701
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34<Alex[lex|yacc]50:#tunes34> hi
50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: melbourne, fl
51-57:51- SignOff 57smoke: #tunes 50(Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn245.delft.casema.net]50)
51-57:51- SignOff 57Alex[lex|yacc]: #tunes 50(Mangez un castor, sauvez un arbre.50)
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34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> hey Alex[]
34<Alex[]50:#tunes34> pwet smklsmkl
51-57:51- 56XeF4 50[36xef4@supernova.sevenheavens.com5650] has joined #tunes
34<XeF450:#tunes34> abi, slate?
34<abi50:#tunes34> slate is a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
34<XeF450:#tunes34> what is the url for the most recent slate pages?
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial
34<XeF450:#tunes34>   Warning: Unable to connect to PostgresSQL server: connectDBStart() --
34<XeF450:#tunes34>    connect() failed: No such file or directory Is the postmaster running
34<XeF450:#tunes34>    at 'localhost' and accepting connections on Unix socket '5432'? in
34<XeF450:#tunes34>                               0 nodes in tutorial
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> bah. their server is fubar
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51-57:51- SignOff 57smklsmkl: #tunes 50(BitchX-1.0c13: just when you thought it couldn't get any better50)
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50* >36morton #TUnes is away. (irc.N)
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34<coreyr50:#tunes34> your mom's server is fubar
51-57:51- 56smklsmkl 50[36sami@ppp35.dial-in.verkkotieto.fi5650] has joined #tunes
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> (btw, that db error is fixed)
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> ((my fault))
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> re
51-57:51- SignOff 57washort: #tunes 50(Ping timeout for washort[d145.narrowgate.net]50)
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> washort`: that's what you get for dissing Canada Dry :P
34<lar150:#tunes34> Gah, Vernors is _much_ stronger then Canada Dry! :P
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> yeah
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> vernors is definitely better
51-57:51- SignOff 57washort`: #tunes 50(ircII EPIC4pre2.508 -- Accept no limitations50)
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51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): changed by 36water5650: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: url for slate docs that does not return a PostgreSQL error?
34<water50:#tunes34> pgsql errors now, is it?
50* >36water #tunes looks
34<water50:#tunes34> where did you get an error
34<water50:#tunes34> ?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> in the url smklsmkl gave me
34<water50:#tunes34> which was?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> I have since forgotten it, but I believe it was a .cx
34<water50:#tunes34> http://diktuon.arrow.cx seems to work fine
34<XeF450:#tunes34> aha.. it was a php script
34<XeF450:#tunes34> with a somethingsomething=tutorial
34<water50:#tunes34> ok check the namespaces listing
34<water50:#tunes34> tutorial is in there, and you can browse in that
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34<XeF450:#tunes34>  http://diktuon.arrow.cx/show.php?ns=Slate&name=intro fails
34<XeF450:#tunes34> tutorial works now
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah that's not the right url
34<water50:#tunes34> although there *was* something there earlier, iirc
34<water50:#tunes34> so something *is* wronf
34<water50:#tunes34> wrong even
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: hm.. I've been puzzling all day over how to handle parentheses as a language extension
34<water50:#tunes34> xef4: forth has had some experience with that
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: I know..
34<water50:#tunes34> which afaik falls under their meta-compiler work
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: but most approaches I have thought up are too CPU-intensive
34<water50:#tunes34> such as?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> such as making ( return a function which retuns a list consisting of itself and the next token recursively until it recieves a message from )
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<XeF450:#tunes34> which somehow seems like a rube goldberg approach
34<water50:#tunes34> not necessarily
34<water50:#tunes34> does proper tail-recursion sound right for this?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> yes, but still CPU intensive
34<water50:#tunes34> maybe
34<water50:#tunes34> seems like a small price to pay for flexibility
34<XeF450:#tunes34> unless I plan to implement an OS in the same language
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<XeF450:#tunes34> a good optimizer could optimize the recusion away
34<tcn50:#tunes34> what good is a language if you can't write your OS in it?
34<water50:#tunes34> what language *can't* an os be written in?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> efficiently
34<water50:#tunes34> (assuming proper environment support)
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<tcn50:#tunes34> say, I heard about squeak-os :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah, but it ain't self-hosted
34<water50:#tunes34> although it does fit on a floppy :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> oh.. it's a C-compiled VM?
34<water50:#tunes34> that and the boot code is OSKit-derived
34<tcn50:#tunes34> figures :)
34<water50:#tunes34> what did you expect?
34<water50:#tunes34> until some real money gets invested, it won't get much support
34<tcn50:#tunes34> it's promising
34<water50:#tunes34> true
34<water50:#tunes34> and the windowing system and gui code *are* squeak native :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> it reminds me of the OLD mac and amiga OSes
34<water50:#tunes34> how so?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> size-wise
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> if they get their act together on tightening squeak's belt-line properly, then it will be a lot smaller
34<tcn50:#tunes34> at least it's getting away from the idea of the OS hogging the machine :)
34<water50:#tunes34> despite the features-to-size ratio, there's still a lot of bloat in it
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<tcn50:#tunes34> yup.. the Forth equivalent would be maybe 30k :)
34<water50:#tunes34> and squeak has threading and such :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah but you can't really comment 30k of forth code :)
34<water50:#tunes34> or browse it in a forth-native gui app :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> 30k compiled, mabye 100k source
34<water50:#tunes34> oh ok
34<tcn50:#tunes34> and in Forth the 'browser' could be a block editor
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> hey have we discussed forth-style slate?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> I read Thinking Forth.. saw some nice tricks in there, i'm getting convinced that blocks are the way to go
34<tcn50:#tunes34> forth-style slate, no..
34<water50:#tunes34> it's not rocket-science....
34<water50:#tunes34> basically identify namespace access with word concatenation
34<water50:#tunes34> and each namespace's contents relate to the syntax of the forth system involved
34<water50:#tunes34> sort of like a meta-compiler
34<water50:#tunes34> does that sound right to you?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> how's that different from the old 'vocabulary' system?
34<water50:#tunes34> i don't know... i'm not familiar enough with the fine details of forth
34<tcn50:#tunes34> say you have a ROOT namespace, which contains the words FORTH and ASSEMBLER..
34<tcn50:#tunes34> typing FORTH makes that namespace accessible
34<water50:#tunes34> btw this should also apply to simple forth words like push pop etc and combinatory words
34<tcn50:#tunes34> what's this about 'each namespace's contents relate to the syntax of the forht system involved'?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> are you talking different varieties of forth?
34<water50:#tunes34> sure
34<water50:#tunes34> or just different forth environments
34<tcn50:#tunes34> like 16-bit and 32-bit?
50* >36water #tunes nods
34<water50:#tunes34> among other things
34<water50:#tunes34> the idea is that by having a dynamic namespace system (which it already has), you can simulate language syntaxes and grammars
34<tcn50:#tunes34> like having an ASSEMBLER vocabulary..
34<water50:#tunes34> it doesn't respect the namespace system metaphor very well, but that's a small price to pay
34<water50:#tunes34> dunn
34<water50:#tunes34> dunno
34<tcn50:#tunes34> that's common to have
34<tcn50:#tunes34> you type ASSEMBLER and you're in assembler mode, basically
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<tcn50:#tunes34> it's easier to make the 'sub-language' look like forth, but you can write your own parser and just use Forth's dictionary
34<tcn50:#tunes34> that's how the list-processing extensions work
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<tcn50:#tunes34> forthers write 'little languages' all the time
34<water50:#tunes34> of course
34<water50:#tunes34> this would probably be oriented a little differently, you see
34<water50:#tunes34> since the stacks are implicit in forth
34<tcn50:#tunes34> ok...
34<water50:#tunes34> with slate, the main mechanism to specify syntactic differences is implicit delegation
34<tcn50:#tunes34> which is..?
34<water50:#tunes34> oh just a fancy term for inheritance
34<water50:#tunes34> plus mixins
34<water50:#tunes34> basically either the namespaces inherit from other (usually previous) namespaces, or their meta-objects run algorithms that generate the slots on demand
34<tcn50:#tunes34> ok.. in regular Forth you have a search-order... say + isn't found in the ASSEMBLER namespace, the interpreter looks in the next namespace in the search order, finds it in FORTH, executes it..
34<tcn50:#tunes34> but you can always define a different version of + in ASSEMBLER
34<water50:#tunes34> well this is just about getting the namespace idea to allow extensible syntax, forth-style
34<tcn50:#tunes34> i'm looking at this from the perspective of implementing SLATE in FORTH.. you're thinking the other way round right?
34<water50:#tunes34> kind of
34<water50:#tunes34> just seeing how to do forth-y things in slate
34<water50:#tunes34> keep in mind i can make a pure stack language in one object in slate :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> well.. the postfix syntax seems pretty important. It allows the compiler/interpreter to take things one step at a time
34<water50:#tunes34> sure
34<tcn50:#tunes34> like something a zen would say :)
34<water50:#tunes34> but i can make an elaborate stack object :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> so :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> you want to hear what I dislike about forth?
34<water50:#tunes34> sure
34<water50:#tunes34> hey put it into the zope review for forth :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> gotta think about this one :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> the need to put a space after every 'word' can be annoying, when doing things like comments
34<water50:#tunes34> how about "it's only a little more readible than apl" ;)
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<tcn50:#tunes34> color forth would alleviate that annoyance..
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah i noticed that discussion on CLF
34<tcn50:#tunes34> i'm gonna have a cforth mode in Retro.. not much to it
34<tcn50:#tunes34> postfix syntax, I can't complain about that. it becomes an advantage when you're doing complex formulae
34<tcn50:#tunes34> lack of popularity, there's a big problem :)
34<water50:#tunes34> lack of a squeak-a-like?
34<water50:#tunes34> such as self-hosted gui and environment
34<water50:#tunes34> s/environment/application set/
34<tcn50:#tunes34> well.. there's just not much example code to look at
34<tcn50:#tunes34> no books in the stores..
34<tcn50:#tunes34> nothing to compete with all the java hype, or whatever it is this month
34<tcn50:#tunes34> (xml?)
34<water50:#tunes34> directory services? :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> haah
34<tcn50:#tunes34> lack of employment opportunities :(
34<water50:#tunes34> the same could be said of inventing
34<tcn50:#tunes34> i'm using it a little at work, to test things out.. but it doesn't mesh well with things like Access
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah i do database work and design myself
34<water50:#tunes34> i'd kill to use smalltalk
34<tcn50:#tunes34> hey, I finally get to use pgsql at work :)
34<water50:#tunes34> bah one small step
34<water50:#tunes34> there are smalltalk systems designed for database implementation and admin, design, etc
34<tcn50:#tunes34> navy guys want their data stored in a central location, instead of copies sent out.. pretty cool :)
34<water50:#tunes34> :P
34<tcn50:#tunes34> and we're having so much trouble with NT4 and W2K as servers, we may be going over to unix
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm currently in charge of unifying our *entire* admin system to the nth degree
34<tcn50:#tunes34> NT just makes simple things like backup/restore friggin impossible
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah i know
34<tcn50:#tunes34> there is no 'superuser'
34<tcn50:#tunes34> retarded
34<water50:#tunes34> it seems we have the same job
34<water50:#tunes34> roughly
34<tcn50:#tunes34> who's "us" for you?
34<water50:#tunes34> i have my bosses convinced that we can make a constellation of databases for security and privacy of info, yet keep it unified
34<water50:#tunes34> eh?
34<water50:#tunes34> i meant you and i
34<tcn50:#tunes34> I mean, your group you're in charge of
34<water50:#tunes34> heh what group? :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> a ship, or what?
34<water50:#tunes34> there are two officers and 3 enlisted guys who i consult with
34<water50:#tunes34> oh yes
34<water50:#tunes34> an aircraft carrier
34<tcn50:#tunes34> heh.. i've heard stories.. a guy who left my company a couple months ago, he used to do security auditing in the navy.. they found one carrier that was wide open to the internet :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah the administrators are nin-com-poops
34<water50:#tunes34> but since i'm not "trained", i can't advise them formally
34<tcn50:#tunes34> yeah, damn bureaucrats :)
34<water50:#tunes34> aka stupid people
34<water50:#tunes34> and i'm not exaggerating in describing these people as less-than-bright
34<water50:#tunes34> oh well
34<tcn50:#tunes34> big pain in the ass with the 1388-2B standard is that they specified that it had to use a relational db, with foreign keys.. makes it difficult to achieve the same goal using a better design
50* >36water #tunes snaps out of it
34<tcn50:#tunes34> we work with a lot of people at what was an IBM plant.. "I Believe in Meetings".. it's all they do!!
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<tcn50:#tunes34> never get any work done
34<tcn50:#tunes34> there's another project we're doing tech manuals for, and the actual equipment is still in breadboard
34<tcn50:#tunes34> doesn't even work
34<water50:#tunes34> no one i work for knows enough buzzwords to be a threat
34<water50:#tunes34> geez
34<water50:#tunes34> that explains a lot :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> so your boss doesn't talk about web-enabling the administrative functions? that's good :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<water50:#tunes34> in fact, i do most of that kind of thing myself and just demo and use it when they like it :)
34<water50:#tunes34> pretty much the only bottleneck is having to use Access
34<water50:#tunes34> (which is a really big one of course)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> hah
34<tcn50:#tunes34> have you got a C compiler or something that can use the DAO .dll without Access?
34<water50:#tunes34> no they don't want me writing in C
34<tcn50:#tunes34> ehh? 
34<water50:#tunes34> in fact, they want me to avoid VB wherever possible :)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> not enough C programmers around in case you die?
34<water50:#tunes34> try 0
34<tcn50:#tunes34> what are you supposed to do if you can't program? :)
34<water50:#tunes34> 0 for VB programmers as well
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> they let me use VB if it can't be done any other way
34<tcn50:#tunes34> i'm trying to train some of my coworkers to do a little programming.. the ones who know Access pretty well..
34<water50:#tunes34> the idea is that we're going to hand over the software with a small manual for 1 admin and many users to other ships
34<water50:#tunes34> besides, i'd much sooner code in Smalltalk than C when it comes to databases
34<water50:#tunes34> or VB for that matter
34<tcn50:#tunes34> you use queries much?
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<tcn50:#tunes34> SQL.. worst language ever
34<water50:#tunes34> oh well
34<water50:#tunes34> it's poweful at least
34<tcn50:#tunes34> well it gets annoying when you need recursion
34<tcn50:#tunes34> you have this slow ugly hybrid of vb and sql
34<water50:#tunes34> can't hold a candle to smalltalk, though, in it's own intended category
34<water50:#tunes34> heh yep
34<water50:#tunes34> everything to learn in access is just a trick
34<water50:#tunes34> nothing is systematically-designed
34<tcn50:#tunes34> yeah, "where'd they bury this..."
34<water50:#tunes34> that's why i like smalltalk
34<water50:#tunes34> it takes me 5 minutes to code something in smalltalk that takes days to do properly in access
34<tcn50:#tunes34> did you ever figure out how to access the 'hidden' and 'description' attributes of objects in the database windows?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah
34<tcn50:#tunes34> writable?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> i think so, although i didn't try
34<tcn50:#tunes34> i've about given up on that
34<tcn50:#tunes34> seen access 2000?
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> nope
34<water50:#tunes34> does it use xml properly?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> well they just moved a buncha shit around on the screen
34<tcn50:#tunes34> i haven't installed it
34<water50:#tunes34> oh wonderful
34<tcn50:#tunes34> just helped out another guy with a query
34<tcn50:#tunes34> he say's it's crap :)
34<water50:#tunes34> how much better is oracle?
34<tcn50:#tunes34> never used it.. our biggest customer does..
34<tcn50:#tunes34> a 5-fridge size thing..
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<tcn50:#tunes34> best I can figure, it's like pgsql
34<water50:#tunes34> i'll just plug smalltalk then
34<tcn50:#tunes34> like pgsql, but designed for really fuckin huge things
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah that's what i thought
34<water50:#tunes34> this is too much talk about work for me
34<tcn50:#tunes34> haha
34<tcn50:#tunes34> yeah, me too.. i'm on vacation
34<tcn50:#tunes34> man, you'd think it's july 4th here
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> water: i found a paper in Henry Baker's archive on instruction scheduling by trying a few permutations generated from a crude machine model versus a more precise machine model :)
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> don't let lmaxson know about it... >:)
34<water50:#tunes34> hm? why not?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> (kidding)
34<tcn50:#tunes34> so, was the crude model good enough?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> well, he's inferring that its possible to get better instruction schedules
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> by just running the various permutations
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> and seeing which one is faster
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> (of course, he admits that this only works within single basic blocks)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> and you still need a crude model to weed out most permutations
34<water50:#tunes34> the same could be said of neural nets, you know
34<water50:#tunes34> or genetic algorithms
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> yes :)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> but, as a local heuristic
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> if you know the previous instruction in the schedule
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> and have multiple choices for following, it would be simpler than creating an accurate machine model :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah but choosing instructions seems to naturally presume an accurate machine model
34<water50:#tunes34> whether in one's head or in software... you're just not using it at code generation time
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34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> water: Oracle runs on small machines too and runs 10-100 times faster than Access.
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34<water50:#tunes34> unfortunately, my issue is with complexity of use, but obviously this comment falls on deaf ears
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0702
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0702
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51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o Tril50] by 57ChanServ
34<Tril50:#tunes34> hey, abi, how's it going?
34<Tril50:#tunes34> Are you sentient yet?
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34<Tril50:#tunes34> hey, water
34<water50:#tunes34> hey tril
50* >36water #tunes is just waking up
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34<water50:#tunes34> re es
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> hello
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34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> how is tunes going?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm hard to say
34<water50:#tunes34> a lot of work seems to have slowed down in the last week
34<water50:#tunes34> part of that was my job taking a lot of time, but also hcf has been inexplicably gone and there has been the distraction of lmaxson's rants
34<water50:#tunes34> for some reason, diktuon (and zope?) work has been really quiet and/or stopped
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> :(
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> if it helps any, slate has been progressing, but i still need to overhaul documentation
34<water50:#tunes34> and i haven't figured out what new form the docs will need
34<water50:#tunes34> (suggestions welcome)
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> well, there specifications for other languages you can look to
34<water50:#tunes34> it isn't about implementation of the docs, it's about the structure of it... like the order and categorization of ideas to be presented
34<water50:#tunes34> slate is *not* like other languages
34<water50:#tunes34> i just can't list the keywords and tell what they do
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> water: slate doesn't have any primitives?
34<water50:#tunes34> and there's no single metaphor for working with it
34<water50:#tunes34> yes it has primitives, but they're transparent to the code and they're supposed to be dynamically interchangable
34<water50:#tunes34> does that make sense? have you read the existing tunes docs?
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34<water50:#tunes34> er s/tunes/slate/
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> and I don't think most language specifications dwell on keywords (with the possible exception of BASIC)
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34<water50:#tunes34> (eh? why'd he leave?)
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> es: i have to disagree
34<water50:#tunes34> es: most languages have static construct types
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> water: I have tried to read the Slate docs, but I don't think I understand the paradigm very well...or something similar that I don't understand
34<water50:#tunes34> es: do you grok smalltalk or self or lisp?
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> water: I grok lisp. I think I have introduced myself to smalltalk at one time...I know nothing about self (which I've been meaning to get around to)
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> sorry if I'm not much help
34<water50:#tunes34> lisp for example has a static type system that slate doesn't have, for example
34<water50:#tunes34> even the quoting mechanism in slate is open
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> hmm
34<water50:#tunes34> and besides that, slate "emulates" oo through the use of particular meta-objects
34<water50:#tunes34> the interchangability of meta-object architectures makes things a bit difficult to explain in a fixed way
34<water50:#tunes34> because everyone hates a particular mop
50* >36extrasolar #tunes also doesn't understand meta-programming, although he tried to
34<water50:#tunes34> what about lisp's macros?
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> okay, I don't think I mean grok...I meant "understands superficially"
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> so I don't know about lisp macros
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> sorry
34<water50:#tunes34> it just basically amounts to being able to manipulate syntax trees using programs at run-time or even compile-time
34<water50:#tunes34> hm reminds me of another lisp thing that slate's trying to get rid of... special syntactic forms
34<water50:#tunes34> at least for primitive syntax, not macro-defined
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> so it doesn't try to enforce programming style...
34<water50:#tunes34> perhaps
34<water50:#tunes34> the basic metaphor is graph-manipulation, which does seems like an enforcement of style at a certain level
34<water50:#tunes34> (or s/graph/web/)
34<water50:#tunes34> bbiaf (~15 minutes)
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> A lot what you are saying and, indeed, Slate...is a ways over my head. I understand functional programming via Haskell and Scheme, OOP via C++ (yes I've heard of C++'s crudeness for OOP), and some other bizarities like Forth...Ihaven't programmed in any of these languages really but I understand or used to understand how the lanugages work
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> the only language that I can say I actually grok is BASIC (which was a long time ago)
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> but Slate seems to be so different from all them
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> the whole namespace thing that you dig into that contains the value of the function escapes me
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> and I don't really think that OOP and Functional Programming mix well, because they completely different ideas about state and assignment
50* >36extrasolar #tunes digs into some more of the docs to fill some holes
34<td50:#tunes34> functional seems to be more about flow and OOP seems to be more about structure
34<td50:#tunes34> from what i understand
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> I agree on the functional front but not on the OO front
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> OOP seem to be more about state
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> how to cleanly access, construct, and destruct state/objects
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> How do you see structure?
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> Pure functional languages try to avoid state entirely
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> i view OOP as a sorta 'overlay' of functional programming i guess
34<td50:#tunes34> from what i see of C++ anyhow
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> accessing OS functions seems to be done much more cleaner in OO, so you can do file.open("myfile.txt")
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> overlay? how?
34<td50:#tunes34> well, breaking the flow of function
34<td50:#tunes34> into small sub-sections.. or structures
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> you seem to be describing structured programming, via C or pascal
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah probably
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> C++ is supposedly a multi-paradigm language...structured, OOP, generic, etc
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> but the OOP aspects are the class structure
34<td50:#tunes34> thats probably why my understand of OOP is broken
34<td50:#tunes34> i've only touched C++ a few times too
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> some people suggest that C++'s OOP is broken :)
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> just wish i could better understand tunes goals
50* >36extrasolar #tunes agrees entirely
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34<td50:#tunes34> seems all too incoherent to me
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> I can understand some of it. Like basing an OS on higher level programming seems like a very good idea.
34<td50:#tunes34> yes
34<td50:#tunes34> i'm starting to see what reflection can do.. i believe
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> but things like reflective and meta-programming, just seem like over-engineering to me (i don't really understand them, mind you)
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> thats what i was thinking.. but it has made some sense
34<td50:#tunes34> i think meta-programming is a way to share semantics
34<td50:#tunes34> between languages and interfaces
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50* >36water #tunes is back. reading what he missed
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> td: then Tunes is to be based on many programming languages
34<td50:#tunes34> and reflection is a way to modify or evolve the system
34<td50:#tunes34> thats what i gather
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> td: I know that Lisp lets you modify lists, even lists that are to be executed...is that like reflection?
34<td50:#tunes34> i assume its something like it
34<td50:#tunes34> but you can't modify structures outside of lisp's realm can you?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> over-engineering??
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> water: heh, I am pretty confused, aren't I :)
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> water: yes. that is a statement from someone who doesn't understand what he is talking about
34<water50:#tunes34> look basically lisp's macros allow you to input a piece of code with special constructs, where the special constructs are the macros that output core lisp code
34<water50:#tunes34> it allows you to factor out repeatedly-used code
34<water50:#tunes34> but it's also the lisp programming language itself, so you can do it recursively
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> hmm
34<water50:#tunes34> it's actually the opposite of over-engineering, since you're just taking old code and finding templates in it, and factoring out the templates
34<water50:#tunes34> however, macros do have problems of their own
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> water: is that something like higher-order functions...where you can take out parts of functions, that produce functions, that can be used over and over again in other functions?
34<water50:#tunes34> they're not bullet-proof, since they have to be defined in the same environment they're used in, and symbol clashes can cause strange bugs
34<water50:#tunes34> yes, it's a higher-order function that relies on quoting
34<water50:#tunes34> the quoting allows you to do more things by delaying or forcing evaluation (or even changing it entirely)
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34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> I think I am on the virge of understanding
34<water50:#tunes34> pick up a lisp book that covers macros, maybe
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34<water50:#tunes34> hopefully there's an online tutorial for lisp that covers macros
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34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> yes, I should
34<water50:#tunes34> i think abi has an entry for that
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34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> abi?
34<abi50:#tunes34> extrasolar?
34<water50:#tunes34> abi: lisp primer
34<abi50:#tunes34> lisp primer is at http://logic.tamu.edu/~colin/lp/lp.html
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> oh!
34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> heh :) thanks
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah it covers macros a little
34<water50:#tunes34> np
34<water50:#tunes34> abi: successful lisp
34<abi50:#tunes34> successful lisp is at http://psg.com/~dlamkins/left/sl/sl.html
34<water50:#tunes34> that covers quite a bit more (nearly all of CL)
34<water50:#tunes34> i really missed having abi around
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34<extrasolar50:#tunes34> oh! macros are like lazy evaluation?
34<water50:#tunes34> they can be
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34<_Gadget_50:#tunes34> hey
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34<water50:#tunes34> idiots run academia
34<water50:#tunes34> re all
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34<water50:#tunes34> intelligenesis and principia cybernetica get an article in NewScientist :P
34<water50:#tunes34> the article isn't online, though, amazingly
50* >36billh #tunes reads the linux-kernel low latency discussion.
34<water50:#tunes34> hm i might just spend a bunch of time offline in linux using klyx to write papers
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0703
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0703
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): changed by 36water5650: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System - http://www.tunes.org/
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34<water50:#tunes34> hi
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34<water50:#tunes34> hi
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50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: games
50* >36coreyr #tunes is back
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50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: in vero, 4th of july stuff
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34<water50:#tunes34> re!
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> re watrrrr
34<water50:#tunes34> :P
34<water50:#tunes34> :)
34<water50:#tunes34> i think i'm autistic by brain-chem
34<water50:#tunes34> it's the only explanation that fits all the questions
34<water50:#tunes34> either that or i'm a natural-born jackass :)
34<water50:#tunes34> so anyway
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> heh
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> i was just thinking you were bipolar
34<water50:#tunes34> i just had this wierd insight about <> and hip hop :D
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> hah
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> yo
34<water50:#tunes34> facilitated by being on a bus next to some great musicians and reading a book by Lem
34<water50:#tunes34> "The Futurological Congress" has a decent theme on futurism as related to language morphology
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm still reading it, but i can barely contain myself as it gives me new conceptual ammo for working with <> :)
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> "heh"? :)
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> i just like your positivism
34<water50:#tunes34> heh interesting choice of words :)
34<water50:#tunes34> i really need to write
34<water50:#tunes34> all sorts of things of course
34<water50:#tunes34> is eihrul around?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> yeah you have the energy write now
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> no hes not
34<water50:#tunes34> damn
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> right
34<water50:#tunes34> he gives me the best feedback on slate
34<water50:#tunes34> although you count too
34<water50:#tunes34> got suggestions for slate docs structure?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> uhm
50* >36water #tunes is going to go flipside to work in KLyX for this
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> do you know anything about knowledge representation on the web?
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> whats oml?
34<water50:#tunes34> being the arrow guy :)
34<water50:#tunes34> ontology markup language
34<water50:#tunes34> there's also kqml
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> consensus?
34<water50:#tunes34> "consensus"?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> whats the word on it?
34<water50:#tunes34> it's a rough subset of predicate logic
34<water50:#tunes34> with markup syntax
34<water50:#tunes34> and a smattering of modules
34<water50:#tunes34> (ontologies being the modules of sorts)
34<water50:#tunes34> why?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> came across it
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> i want diktuon to store meta data somehow
34<water50:#tunes34> and yes it is more than just a different perspective on xml
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> i just dont know which is the right way
34<water50:#tunes34> uh
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> if such a thing exists
34<water50:#tunes34> rdf's?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> do you like that?
34<water50:#tunes34> kis
34<water50:#tunes34> that's the only reason i mentioned it
34<water50:#tunes34> wow tunes mlist traffic died pretty quickly
50* >36coreyr #tunes is back
34<water50:#tunes34> so
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> so your gonna hate me
34<water50:#tunes34> suggestions on slate doc structure?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> hmm
34<water50:#tunes34> hate you? why?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> because i have to leave in a few
34<water50:#tunes34> :P
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> but hmm
34<water50:#tunes34> well like i said i'll be flipside
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> well i have namespaces now in dik2 so thatll help a lot more
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> i thought hcf was gonna help
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah i can convert my latex to html and nodify from there
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> but he dissappeared
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah but you'll notice someone restarted abi
34<water50:#tunes34> possibly tril
34<water50:#tunes34> so any suggestions before you jet?
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> structure means a lot of things
34<water50:#tunes34> ok "outline"
34<water50:#tunes34> to be technical
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> well the nodes make it really flexible
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> so you can direct the newbies to look at the tutorial
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> and know-it-alls to look at the real spec
34<water50:#tunes34> true
50* >36water #tunes should look into hypertex
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> what i think would be cool would be
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> something that read dik's db
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> and made .ps and .pdf from it
34<water50:#tunes34> uhm
34<water50:#tunes34> that's a side issue at this point :)
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> :)
34<water50:#tunes34> if you convert to tex it would work fine
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> everythings a side issue it seems
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah well i gotta crank out docs
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> ok
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> good luck
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> ill give feedback
34<water50:#tunes34> so much for suggestions :P
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> im more of a suggestions-for-change than suggestions-for-roadmap
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> type o' person
34<water50:#tunes34> i noticed ;)
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> i gotta reboot anyway to get some web material 'coz my os runtime is currently bbroken
34<water50:#tunes34> brb
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34<coreyr50:#tunes34> well email me coreyr@onezerosix.net
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> when you have something to consume
34<coreyr50:#tunes34> its late and i gotta get on the road
50* >36coreyr #tunes is away: vero beach, fl: fourth of july
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34<water50:#tunes34> re
34<water50:#tunes34> hm he's gone
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0704
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0704
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34<thomas50:#tunes34> he?
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34<morton50:#tunes34> hi kyle
34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> hello
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51-57:51- mode50/36#tunes 5650[57+o water50] by 57ChanServ
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34<sc50:#tunes34> homo-iconic?  (!'pictures of people' & ~~"huh?")
34<sc50:#tunes34> something at http://www.tunes.org/files/papers/Arrow_Introduction_v8.htm reminds me of something written by Buckminster Fuller.  if the explanation was in simpler terms, it might be helpful for folks.
34<sc50:#tunes34> anyway, have fun
34<sc50:#tunes34> and thanks
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34<morton50:#tunes34> he'z right
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> rmm, what was that?
34<morton50:#tunes34> buckminster fuller
34<morton50:#tunes34> eihrul: how's progress on 'leak'?
50* >36eihrul #tunes shrugs.
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> right now working on slate
34<morton50:#tunes34> what's a good ide/editor for windows?
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34<water50:#tunes34> 'lo
34<td50:#tunes34> hey water
34<water50:#tunes34> hey
34<td50:#tunes34> hows it goin today
34<water50:#tunes34> not bad i suppose
34<water50:#tunes34> i've been working on documentation outlines
34<td50:#tunes34> oh?
34<td50:#tunes34> for slate?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah figuring out how to organise explanations for slate is difficult
34<water50:#tunes34> (and for arrow)
34<td50:#tunes34> i'd imagine
34<td50:#tunes34> i need to read back over arrow a few times
34<water50:#tunes34> i have a large collection of concrete things to say about arrow, but i can't put them together properly
34<water50:#tunes34> no, ignore that paper
34<td50:#tunes34> heh. both versions?
34<water50:#tunes34> it's not doing the job that people need it to
34<water50:#tunes34> yes, both versions
34<td50:#tunes34> i think it'd help to have examples
34<water50:#tunes34> it's a good paper, but not for explaining
34<water50:#tunes34> no kidding
34<water50:#tunes34> but that's a wide-open suggestion
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> maybe there should be an emulator
34<water50:#tunes34> have you looked at the smalltalk code?
34<td50:#tunes34> nope
34<td50:#tunes34> where at?
34<water50:#tunes34> check my homepage
34<td50:#tunes34> ok
34<33td5350:#tunes34> tunes.org/~water ?
34<water50:#tunes34> it loads in squeak, and i could port it to other smalltalks pretty trivially
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> hmm. i see where you have info about it
34<td50:#tunes34> just no link to it
34<water50:#tunes34> hm... looking
34<td50:#tunes34> only lisp evaluator
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah it's there
34<water50:#tunes34> under the arrow heading, "prototype code" is the link
34<td50:#tunes34> ok
34<td50:#tunes34> ah there it is
34<td50:#tunes34> not sure i understand enough of squeak to make use of it.. but ill try
34<water50:#tunes34> it's just an object-oriented spec
34<water50:#tunes34> block-indentation shows where method code is
34<water50:#tunes34> and i made sure to comment it as well as i could think of
34<td50:#tunes34> i see
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> i think i know how i could significantly improve it
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah, there's some things i discussed with people in december or so that were significant and yet simple
34<water50:#tunes34> i believe it's on the mlist
50* >36water #tunes looks into the archives
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah the two system graphs 'car' and 'cdr' (i never did find better names for them)
34<td50:#tunes34> hmm. i remember something to do w/ that
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah and also 'apply'
34<water50:#tunes34> damn it, my squeak image is all dis-organized now
34<water50:#tunes34> time to re-build it
34<td50:#tunes34> squeak is interesting
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah but it's got a long way to go
34<td50:#tunes34> seems to be a 'play thing'.. but i found irc and a web browser
34<water50:#tunes34> right
34<td50:#tunes34> wish it was faster under X
34<water50:#tunes34> the web browser is getting some serious updates
50* >36water #tunes is on the squeak mlist
34<td50:#tunes34> morphic UI is nice.. but seems annoying
34<td50:#tunes34> hit wrong mouse button and you end up changing things
34<water50:#tunes34> which parts in particular?
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
34<td50:#tunes34> not sure i like it where you modify properties w/ right or whatever mouse button
34<water50:#tunes34> well, you can turn that off
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> open preferences... pick simple halos
34<water50:#tunes34> there are other things you can do as well
34<water50:#tunes34> unfortunately, it's not the default
34<water50:#tunes34> and it's not trivial
34<td50:#tunes34> heh yeah
34<water50:#tunes34> the problem is that core morphic is getting overhauled and it will change a lot of things.... the ease of use factors are supposed to get fixed right then
34<water50:#tunes34> if you look at the "morph" class you'll see why there needs to be change :)
34<td50:#tunes34> heh.
34<td50:#tunes34> considering i dont know smalltalk i think i'll stay away for a bit
34<water50:#tunes34> you can get tutorials
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah i saw a few
34<water50:#tunes34> damn, not right now though... the squeak site wiki is down :/
34<td50:#tunes34> just need to find time to read them
34<td50:#tunes34> finally got around to reading, or re-reading a lisp tut
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<td50:#tunes34> just need to make a program to make sure i understand it all
50* >36water #tunes grabs squeak 2.8
34<td50:#tunes34> heh.
34<td50:#tunes34> figures. i just got 2.7 couple days ago
34<water50:#tunes34> squeakaholic
34<water50:#tunes34> 2.8 is still beta
34<td50:#tunes34> ah
34<water50:#tunes34> i was alpha testing until the update stream just skyrocketed
34<water50:#tunes34> i couldn't keep up
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34<water50:#tunes34> re eih
34<td50:#tunes34> isn't there is squeak OS?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> re
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah, oskit-enabled :)
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah that was what i saw
34<water50:#tunes34> fits on a floppy, though
34<td50:#tunes34> probably wont like my hardware tho
34<water50:#tunes34> what's odd about your hw?
34<td50:#tunes34> nothing really i suppose
34<td50:#tunes34> not sure how it gets into higher video modes
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah there are differences i suppose
34<water50:#tunes34> darn 56k modem... it takes forever to get a big download
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> i finally got cable modem last month
34<td50:#tunes34> major improvement
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm still waiting.... it's supposed to be soon
34<td50:#tunes34> @home ?
34<water50:#tunes34> no
34<water50:#tunes34> or did you mean that as in "are you at home?"?
34<td50:#tunes34> no heh
34<td50:#tunes34> i meant is that the cable supplier
34<water50:#tunes34> no, some local company
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> i need some friggin tools
34<td50:#tunes34> tools?
34<water50:#tunes34> like a scanner or a digital cam
34<td50:#tunes34> oh.
34<td50:#tunes34> same here
34<water50:#tunes34> or a stylus pad
34<td50:#tunes34> i definately need a printer
34<water50:#tunes34> nah screw printers
34<td50:#tunes34> its a pain to read all these docs on a screen
34<water50:#tunes34> there's only one direction i want info to go in  :)
34<water50:#tunes34> bah
34<td50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> i've read cs papers on my pda (RIP)
34<td50:#tunes34> i can't wait until some of the digital paper technologies become mainstream
34<td50:#tunes34> ick
50* >36water #tunes had a cassiopeia e-100
34<td50:#tunes34> i dont think i could read anything on a 4" palm
34<water50:#tunes34> it ran squeak :)
34<td50:#tunes34> hehe. nice
34<td50:#tunes34> i saw a few pda screenshots running squeak
34<td50:#tunes34> and a digital cam
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm waiting for a good pda based on strongarm to come out
34<td50:#tunes34> whys that
34<water50:#tunes34> because running squeak will be much less cramped on it
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> and having a pda is very useful for me
34<water50:#tunes34> (especially while at work and commuting on the ferry)
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<water50:#tunes34> that's 12 hours a day
34<td50:#tunes34> though wireless inet is costly.. unless you dont plan on using inet
34<water50:#tunes34> no i don't care for wireless right now
34<td50:#tunes34> i'd just like something small and powerful as a PC, but lasts 20 hours on a few batteries
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah
34<water50:#tunes34> good lcd screens suck power though
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> just got a used thinkpad p150 to find out the battery is dead
34<td50:#tunes34> not that it'd last much more than an hour and half
34<water50:#tunes34> hm squeak 2.8 seems quite a bit faster
34<td50:#tunes34> much different from 2.7?
34<water50:#tunes34> still looking
34<water50:#tunes34> the new vm has the speedups
51-57:51- SignOff 57eihrul: #tunes 50([x]chat50)
34<td50:#tunes34> i think im getting the hang of morphic
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34<td50:#tunes34> wow. thats cool stuff
34<water50:#tunes34> what is?
34<td50:#tunes34> morphic
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah it can be
34<td50:#tunes34> i was messing w/ sketcheditor
34<water50:#tunes34> with which?
34<td50:#tunes34> huh?
34<water50:#tunes34> what's stetcheditor?
34<water50:#tunes34> er sketch
34<td50:#tunes34> its in the 'standard parts' dialog
34<water50:#tunes34> oh that
34<td50:#tunes34> everything is rotateable or resizable dynamically
34<water50:#tunes34> you can play with thinglab, too (an extra)
34<td50:#tunes34> not part of the image?
34<water50:#tunes34> not that i know of
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> it's in the goodies directory of the squeak ftp
34<td50:#tunes34> ok
34<td50:#tunes34> i think there is more in squeak than all my X programs combined
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> no there's a lot missing
34<td50:#tunes34> guess so.
34<water50:#tunes34> of course it's much more productive if you code it in squeak ;)
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah heh
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0705
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0705
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
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34<eihrul50:#tunes34> re
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34<billh50:#tunes34> Hello
34<billh50:#tunes34> eihrul You rang ?
34<billh50:#tunes34> ;-)
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> eh?
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34<ult50:#Tunes34> Hmmm
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34<chocolategeek50:#tunes34> hello
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0706
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0706
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34<smoke50:#tunes34> hello
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34<smoke50:#tunes34> what lisp os projects exist next to ocelot?
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> re lar
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34<water50:#tunes34> re td
34<td50:#tunes34> hey water
50* >36water #tunes just got back from work after 36 hrs
34<td50:#tunes34> man.
34<td50:#tunes34> i dont see how you can take that
34<water50:#tunes34> it doesn't matter...
34<water50:#tunes34> anyway, i'm finishing up those changes to the arrow squeak code
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<td50:#tunes34> what changes were those
34<water50:#tunes34> hm i guess it was someone else i was discussing them with?
34<water50:#tunes34> the car and cdr graphs and the apply
34<td50:#tunes34> dunno. i remember talking about squeak
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah you said something about that
34<water50:#tunes34> the code isn't too difficult, i just have to include all the consistency checks and things to make it true to the concept
34<td50:#tunes34> i see
34<water50:#tunes34> arrow isn't oop per se at all... a sort of mix of oo and fp
34<water50:#tunes34> (like slate, actually)
34<td50:#tunes34> hmm
34<td50:#tunes34> slate is arrow, though?
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<water50:#tunes34> arrow will be a kind of developed slate environment
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> slate itself is not quite the same as arrow
34<td50:#tunes34> slate just implements what is needed for arrow ?
50* >36water #tunes nods
34<td50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> what other programming languages don't have at all
34<water50:#tunes34> although making sure slate has what's needed isn't easy either
34<td50:#tunes34> i imagine
34<td50:#tunes34> arrow is essentially what the tunes' goals are right?
34<water50:#tunes34> kind of
34<td50:#tunes34> the entire system
34<water50:#tunes34> arrow is oriented towards a different philosophy
34<td50:#tunes34> oh?
34<33td5350:#tunes34> tunes doesnt seem oriented towards, um 'smart' computing
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah the general idea of ontologies for example are beyond tunes' scope
34<water50:#tunes34> "smart"?
34<td50:#tunes34> as in AI
34<water50:#tunes34> uh
34<water50:#tunes34> neither is arrow, really
34<td50:#tunes34> no?
34<water50:#tunes34> no, arrow is a communications medium
34<td50:#tunes34> hmm. ok
34<water50:#tunes34> a totally new *kind* of medium, but nevertheless just a medium
34<td50:#tunes34> any system that is remotely close to it?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<33water5350:#tunes34> tunes ;)
34<td50:#tunes34> heh
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34<water50:#tunes34> hi
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0707
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0707
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34<billh50:#tunes34> Hello
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> lo
34<billh50:#tunes34> what's up 
34<billh50:#tunes34> ?
34<billh50:#tunes34> how's your project going ?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> okay enough
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34<ult50:#Tunes34> bleh
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34<bozo_fr50:#tunes34> hi
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34<Hardcore50:#tunes34> hey room
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34<water50:#tunes34> re all
34<water50:#tunes34> who's here?
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> no one
34<water50:#tunes34> hey eih
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34<water50:#tunes34> whew
34<water50:#tunes34> getting sucked into worthless discussions is too easy
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> and human
34<water50:#tunes34> all too human :)
34<water50:#tunes34> sorry i fell asleep the other night
34<water50:#tunes34> in the middle of discussion
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34<water50:#tunes34> hm banning doesn't work
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50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> newlog 2000.0708
50[31msg5150(51TUNES50)] not registered yet> permlog 2000.0708
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34<water50:#tunes34> re
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34<XeF450:#tunes34>               Tunes is a Useful, Nevertheless Expedient System
34<XeF450:#tunes34> hm.. am I suffering time dialation?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> time dilation?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> 'expedient'... I first joined this channel 367 days ago
34<water50:#tunes34> would you care to elaborate on that? :)
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: is my sense of time distorted so I do not see the expedience? :)
34<water50:#tunes34> uh you're not talking about tunes then
34<XeF450:#tunes34> hmm?
34<water50:#tunes34> the expedience is here now, it's the usefulness that's missing
34<water50:#tunes34> if you mean the expedience of the appearance of the usefulness, that's another question, and it means YOU SHOULD HELP! :)
34<XeF450:#tunes34> well.. it has been expedient in helping me design my own language proejct
34<XeF450:#tunes34> project
34<XeF450:#tunes34> so, yes.. I suppose it is the usefullness that is missing
34<water50:#tunes34> i forget, which one is that?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> the reflective one with no URL and no name until it has a working compiler
34<water50:#tunes34> lol
34<water50:#tunes34> another lisp clone?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> the one I just got an 'OK' to develop at work
34<XeF450:#tunes34> nothing like lisp
34<water50:#tunes34> and of course since it's not online, no one can critique it
34<water50:#tunes34> so describe it
34<XeF450:#tunes34> because there isn't much to critique at this point
34<water50:#tunes34> have you looked at pliant?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: pliant was my other major inspiration
34<water50:#tunes34> heh
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: and I really have not reason not to implement a self-hosted pliant compiler except that my project is also an educational project for myself...
34<water50:#tunes34> so where are you starting from with the language definition?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: my language {is, will be} a pure message-passing language in which eg.. namespaces, parens, etc implemented as modules as we discussed earlier
34<water50:#tunes34> "we discussed earlier"?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: s/we discussed/I asked you for help on tail recursion in/
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> what's the diff between that and slate?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: I started with a list of semantic requiresments, refined that over a few weeks
34<XeF450:#tunes34> water: I haven't seen enough new documents on slate.  The difference when I started the project was that I couldn't find enough documentation on slate to find it helpful
34<water50:#tunes34> :P
34<water50:#tunes34> so why not ask me?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> that _is_ a good question
34<water50:#tunes34> since i'm currently trying to document what i know, but the outline is really troublesome
34<water50:#tunes34> and eihrul *is* implementing it
34<water50:#tunes34> so...? :)
34<XeF450:#tunes34> so do you have documentation I could read even if it is a mess?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah, it's called the irc logs :/
34<water50:#tunes34> seriously, i grep those
34<water50:#tunes34> and i log private discussions with eihrul
34<XeF450:#tunes34> eihrul is implementing from these?
34<water50:#tunes34> which are numerous and lenghty and focussed
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<XeF450:#tunes34> apt-get install libtelepathy1
34<XeF450:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> you want a copy of those logs?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> yes
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> hm one of 'em is cut off at the beginning
34<water50:#tunes34> hey xef4
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm trying to dcc you a log file. do you want it?
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> there's 4 files total
34<water50:#tunes34> hm the last two aren't very useful unless you thread them into logged discussions
34<water50:#tunes34> (of channels)
34<XeF450:#tunes34> k
34<water50:#tunes34> i found more
34<XeF450:#tunes34> send
34<XeF450:#tunes34> how recent are these logs?
34<water50:#tunes34> less than a month
34<XeF450:#tunes34> <eihrul> slate has been a new language  every single week we talked about it :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<XeF450:#tunes34> sounds like the state my language was in last week
34<water50:#tunes34> slate's been like that for a couple of months now
34<water50:#tunes34> i've heard smalltalk was like that in the early 70's
34<XeF450:#tunes34> so smalltalk 74 is completely different from smalltalk 72?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah, and so is smalltalk-76
34<water50:#tunes34> and smalltalk-72 was a bunch of different things before they implemented it for the first time
34<water50:#tunes34> btw have you looked at the slate docs on diktuon?
34<XeF450:#tunes34> I believe I have - is diktuon powered by postgresql?
34<water50:#tunes34> yep
34<XeF450:#tunes34> url, again?
34<water50:#tunes34> http://diktuon.arrow.cx (if it's up)
34<water50:#tunes34> hm it seems it isn't
34<water50:#tunes34> anyway, that's where the new docs were going
34<water50:#tunes34> there have been more recent discussions with eihrul, but i never logged them myself
34<water50:#tunes34> i know lar1 has logs of a lot, though, through Brianna
34<XeF450:#tunes34> k... I'll write a description of what I have after I'm done with a configurator project for work
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
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34<water50:#tunes34> hi
34<regex50:#tunes34> anyone know of linux tunes?  Some music about linux?
50* >36water #tunes points at the topic
34<water50:#tunes34> sorry, not those tunes
34<regex50:#tunes34> damn
34<XeF450:#tunes34> there is no topic
34<water50:#tunes34> eh?
34<regex50:#tunes34> anyone seen MacOSX yet.. It's really good
34<XeF450:#tunes34> -:- #tunes  There isn't a topic.
51-57:51- Topic 50(36#tunes5650): changed by 36water5650: TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System at http://www.tunes.org/
34<water50:#tunes34> regex: yeah i've been looking at it
34<regex50:#tunes34> It's UNIX!!!! *BIG SMILE*
34<water50:#tunes34> kind of
34<water50:#tunes34> it's MachBSD
34<regex50:#tunes34> true.
34<regex50:#tunes34> What aGUI though.... it's amazing!
34<water50:#tunes34> maybe
34<water50:#tunes34> have you ever used squeak?
34<regex50:#tunes34> nope... whats that.
34<water50:#tunes34> it's a smalltalk os that you can host on any other os
34<water50:#tunes34> with it's own gui
50* >36XeF4 #tunes tries to places what, exactly, about OSX is reflective
34<XeF450:#tunes34> s/places/place/
34<water50:#tunes34> and yes it has anti-aliased fonts and transparencies
34<water50:#tunes34> xef4: it ain't
34<regex50:#tunes34> heh.... s/places/place/g (gotta have the g)
34<XeF450:#tunes34> regex: not if I only replace the first instance
34<regex50:#tunes34> heh.... Oh... *SMILE*
34<water50:#tunes34> abi: squeak?
34<abi50:#tunes34> squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
34<regex50:#tunes34> OPEN SOURCE RULES!  :)
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah and open source smalltalk kicks open source c's ass
34<XeF450:#tunes34> nomad:~$ echo "I'm trying to places this" | sed -e "s/places/place/"
34<XeF450:#tunes34> I'm trying to place this
34<regex50:#tunes34> Perl... It's all perl to me.
34<water50:#tunes34> perl is just skinnable c :)
34<regex50:#tunes34> ARRRGGGGGG Blasphimer!
34<water50:#tunes34> heh you came to the wrong channel to talk about perl and c :)
34<regex50:#tunes34> I have my relgious convictions on any channel... :P
34<XeF450:#tunes34> regex: go drink a litre of vodka and sing the Free Software Song if you want those tunes
34<regex50:#tunes34> Jagermiester and a Regex.... and a clove cigarette.... that is happiness. *SIGH*
34<XeF450:#tunes34> regex: are you a bot?
34<regex50:#tunes34> Only on weekends... 
34<regex50:#tunes34> my $line =~^([01]?\d\d?|2[0-4]\d|25[0-5])\.([01]?\d\d?|2[0-4]\d|25[0-5])\.
34<regex50:#tunes34>        ([01]?\d\d?|2[0-4]\d|25[0-5])\.([01]?\d\d?|2[0-4]\d|25[0-5])$ 
34<regex50:#tunes34> silence covers the crowd....
34<water50:#tunes34> have you looked at our website?
34<regex50:#tunes34> yep... cool... ill look at it at work.
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
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34<water50:#tunes34> bbl tonight.... 7 hours or so
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34<ult50:#Tunes34> heh
34<ult50:#Tunes34> just got here myself
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34<water50:#tunes34> re
34<water50:#tunes34> hm i missed eihrul
34<td50:#tunes34> lo water
34<water50:#tunes34> hey
50* >36water #tunes has been thinking out arrow code architecture for squeak
34<td50:#tunes34> the Abstract-Arrows thing?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> making a whole architecture out of it
34<td50:#tunes34> so what part does/will slate play?
34<water50:#tunes34> slate's namespace structure *is* an arrow graph
34<td50:#tunes34> i see
34<water50:#tunes34> also the user-level type stuff for slate directly relates to arrow ideas
34<td50:#tunes34> so you plan on doing slate in squeak too?
34<water50:#tunes34> no, this is just to demonstrate idea
34<water50:#tunes34> ideas
34<td50:#tunes34> ah
34<td50:#tunes34> something more concrete would help plenty
34<water50:#tunes34> smalltalk code is usually very readible
34<water50:#tunes34> and malleable
34<water50:#tunes34> well the existing arrow code already does a bit to explain the basic concepts
34<td50:#tunes34> hrm
34<td50:#tunes34> how do i import the .st file into the object browser
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
34<td50:#tunes34> =]
34<water50:#tunes34> open a file list
34<td50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> from there, right click on the file and select file in
34<td50:#tunes34> ah
34<td50:#tunes34> i had it opened in a transcript window
34<water50:#tunes34> i don't have an example gui app yet, currently i have some old modifications to the lisp app for squeak that does a few arrow things
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
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34<td50:#tunes34> gui app?
34<water50:#tunes34> yeah something with a window and an interactive session pane
34<td50:#tunes34> oh.
34<td50:#tunes34> threw me off there
34<water50:#tunes34> heh thought i meant drawing arrow graphs? :)
34<td50:#tunes34> heh i had no idea really
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<td50:#tunes34> ok this is much more readable
34<td50:#tunes34> does this have the complete semantics for arrows/graphs yet?
34<td50:#tunes34> or just partial model
34<water50:#tunes34> not quite
34<water50:#tunes34> it does all of the finite things
34<water50:#tunes34> cache-management, basically
34<td50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> i'm still working on the semantics stuff, which requires more classes
34<water50:#tunes34> are you on the tunes mlist?
34<td50:#tunes34> yeah
34<td50:#tunes34> it seems dead though
34<water50:#tunes34> my last mail listed the TODOs
34<water50:#tunes34> just a day or two ago
34<td50:#tunes34> ah there we go
34<td50:#tunes34> found it
34<water50:#tunes34> so do things make a bit more sense now?
34<td50:#tunes34> seems to make more sense
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34<water50:#tunes34> re eih
50* >36water #tunes does some thinking
34<eihrul50:#tunes34> re
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34<lar150:#tunes34> water:  Tu esta aqui?
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34<lar150:#tunes34> water:  Do you have any papers on that language concept you pointed me to yesterday?
34<water50:#tunes34> huh? which language concept?
34<lar150:#tunes34> The one you suguested I use instead of mudging the line between vocabulary and alphabet
34<water50:#tunes34> lol
34<water50:#tunes34> no, i don't keep papers around on that
34<water50:#tunes34> and it's called a concatenative syntax
34<lar150:#tunes34> Ok.
34<water50:#tunes34> i.e. every phrase counts unless proven that it can't mean anything
34<lar150:#tunes34> What language is <> based upon?
34<water50:#tunes34> um none
34<water50:#tunes34> the parts of the bootstrap borrowed from languages, but that does not reflect on <>
34<lar150:#tunes34> I thought you stated that <> was not a language in and of itself?
34<water50:#tunes34> grrr
34<water50:#tunes34> thanks for twisting words
34<water50:#tunes34> it isn't... you're question merely implicitly assumed it
34<lar150:#tunes34> So <> is not a langauge, and its not based on a language?
34<water50:#tunes34> geez get a clue!
34<water50:#tunes34> go learn some more
34<lar150:#tunes34> Sorry.
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34<water50:#tunes34> hi
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Hi
34<water50:#tunes34> what brings you to #tunes?
34<Chino50:#tunes34> I am just curious.
34<water50:#tunes34> ok, i can answer questions for ya or just talk
34<water50:#tunes34> as you can see, it's pretty quiet around here :)
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Not many people, either.
34<water50:#tunes34> there's usually not more than 12
34<Chino50:#tunes34> What is TUNES like?
34<water50:#tunes34> it's a bunch of toy prototypes right now
34<water50:#tunes34> we don't have the design rightly worked out yet
34<water50:#tunes34> although eihrul and i are working on the slate programming language, which seems like a good bet
34<Chino50:#tunes34> I see
34<water50:#tunes34> are you a programmer?
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Not at all.
34<water50:#tunes34> oh
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<Chino50:#tunes34> I want to be, though
34<water50:#tunes34> if you want to see something *right* *now* that works a little like tunes should, then look at squeak or a scheme
34<water50:#tunes34> abi: squeak?
34<abi50:#tunes34> squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
34<water50:#tunes34> it's not the same thing at all as tunes, but it's better than most other systems
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Okay
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Is squeak a new language?
34<water50:#tunes34> no, it's a smalltalk-80 variant, although they're looking at layering other tiny languages and extensions over it
34<Chino50:#tunes34> It's not popular, isn't it?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm?
34<water50:#tunes34> no, it's not politically correct, if that's what you mean
34<Chino50:#tunes34> I mean, are there many people using squeak?
34<water50:#tunes34> yes
34<water50:#tunes34> just like there are many smalltalkers
34<water50:#tunes34> not as many as there are c or python users
34<Chino50:#tunes34> I see
34<Chino50:#tunes34> I would like to learn squeak anyway.
34<water50:#tunes34> ok
34<water50:#tunes34> there are links to documentation and tutorials from the squeak.org page and from the dmoz.org section for smalltalk and squeak
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Okay
34<Chino50:#tunes34> How long do you think it'll take to master squeak?
34<water50:#tunes34> hm
34<water50:#tunes34> it depends on who you have to help you
34<water50:#tunes34> learning a programming environment always goes faster when you have help, particularly personal help
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Oh
34<water50:#tunes34> and there's so much to squeak, since it includes a lot of applications, that i've been using it for months, but i haven't mastered it
34<water50:#tunes34> but you can write useful programs in less than an hour after first learning the language
34<water50:#tunes34> since people have been using smalltalk to teach small children programming for years
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Wow, smalltalk must be very easy to learn!
34<water50:#tunes34> well, try it for yourself
34<water50:#tunes34> the UI for squeak is a little strange i should tell you
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Okay
34<water50:#tunes34> you'd do best to pick up a primer or tutorial from the squeak.org site
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Thanks
34<water50:#tunes34> np
34<water50:#tunes34> there's also smalltalk.org if you need more material
34<Chino50:#tunes34> Okay
34<water50:#tunes34> hm i must go to work soon
34<water50:#tunes34> good bye
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34<Chino50:#tunes34> Good bye, guys
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34<ult50:#Tunes34> heya
34<smklsmkl50:#tunes34> hello ult
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34<Kyle_L50:#Tunes34> Who is over there?
50* >36smklsmkl #tunes is.
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34<ame50:#tunes34> hi all... I have question about linux semaphores...
34<XeF450:#tunes34> you should ask #kernelnewbies about that
34<ame50:#tunes34> thanks...
51-57:51- ame 50[user1548@dialup23-r6.egenet.com.tr50] has left #tunes 50[5750]
51-57:51- SignOff 57AlonzoTG: #tunes 50(Have Nice Day :)50)
51-57:51- SignOff 57smklsmkl: #tunes 50(back tomorrow50)
IRC log ended Mon Jul 10 16:35:26 2000