IRC log started Fri Mar 24 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0324 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us715.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us210.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-136.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:57am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-117.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf13.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes morning smokie :) hi fufie Fufie: is it good practice to build ones own object system instead of using CLOS ? depends if one after testing with clos figures out that one needs a small faster subset one builds one 02:10am but clos usually does a good job and in some implementations is optimised hey, what kind of oses can be part of the os subprojects listing? I doubt there is a limit I'm creating RoomOS... my interface to my room :) but the OS I once saw which was html-pages and GIFs is probably not good enough webOS ;) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes morning dalvarez well.. night here :) 02:20am the children of the night :) 2:30 am 02:30am I am here nate, no need to ping me I thought my connection might have been down because yahoo wasn't respondnig.... that happens sometims I am in another virtual desktop though sorrry we all have our virtual worlds mine is virtually free of small pink bunnies though mine is currently has a bunch of broken windows (Microsoft)... I'm to lazy to walk into the nice on the next sector (boot into linux) s/on/one on/ whatcha doing? Fufie: which language has your preference as the tunes hll btw? 02:40am -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-206-117-27-117.dialup.pcmagic.net]) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-157.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes back 02:50am smokie: a powerful lisp Fufie: how easy would it be to implement forth from scratch in assembly? nate: I am currently answering some messages on usenet and trying to get a server working fufie: cool. nate: I am no asm guru, and I have never tried smokie: u good at asm? 03:00am * Fufie/#tunes yawns a little.. soon time to go to work * nate37/#tunes yawns a little.. soon time to go to bed Fufie: what county are u in? s/county/country/ Bergen it's a small republic at the west coast of Norway cool I'm in the usa umm.. heard of it.. that's the country near Canada and Mexico right? :) yay ever visted it? no should do it some day me and my family might move up to canada... usa is getting alittle corrupted :( corrupted? yeah, kinda... slowly companys owning everything... poorer getting poorer... richer getting richer... that kinda stuff ahh.. hows it down where u are? Canada is probably more egalitarian than the US 03:20am in Europe the same thing is slowly happening, but much much slower probebly happens everywhere...overtime the distance between the poor and the middle class economically isn't very large culturally it is a big difference though what type of place do you work at? a software company.. www.icesoft.com (I am also trying to finish my Master's thesis.. hopefully I am done this summer) then I should ponder what kind of job I want :) :) well... hmm... I'm compleating the 8th grade :) and I do some boring javascript shopcarts for a medical distributor company 03:30am javascript.. yuck furfie: are u a programmer at your company? I am a developer yes.. what language? C? mostly java some c, some c++, some python, some scheme and some lisp 03:40am I program mostly in C... or C++... programed in java once you should try a higher level language then get the book 'the little schemer' from your library and have a go with Scheme Fufie is crazy about lisp dialects.... why program in a hhl? dalvarez: I suppose so nate37: if you use a higher level language you can possibly focus more on content instead of on implementation issues. smokie: depends what I'm doing one learns a lot by going to a higher level.. ie you learn more C and C++ by learning e.g Scheme sounds crazy, but is true nope the book isn't at my locale university science library. 03:50am * Fufie/#tunes gotta go.. bbl -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (out) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-157.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (z) -:- djouf [djouf@195.36.243.25] has joined #tunes -:- djouf [djouf@195.36.243.25] has left #tunes [] -:- smoke is now known as Smkoe_Cavey -:- Smkoe_Cavey is now known as smoke -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-211-112.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [newbie@200.224.105.201] has joined #tunes urgh not thinking right today -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[mp-217-211-112.daxnet.no]) 08:40am -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.201]) -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- XeF4 [xef4@194.255.106.103] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff thomas_: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-31.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes morning 10:40am -:- ult [ult@user-37kbanh.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (rebooting) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-316.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Oral sex makes your day) -:- water [water@tnt-9-229.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp209.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hi eih lo work yesterday? yep fyi every 4 days ugh ugh? it was every 3 days in '98 :) well, 4 days is still bad the best i've heard of for navy nuclear guys is 8 01:20pm -:- ult_ [ult@user-38lc6fn.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- ult_ is now known as ult__ -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbanh.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- ult__ is now known as ult hm that interview i did got posted i don't think he quite understood "lowly beta-tester" :) why not? er... why do you think so? oh... well, based on the headline... hadn't read the article yet oh yeah well i think he just wanted to hear about squeak * eihrul/#tunes afks. it's crazy... my parents have no idea what i've been doing outside of work for the last 4 years interview? http://www.linux.com/interviews/ btw, are you still "cray"? s/cray/crazy/ -:- Utopiste [securiweb@securiweb.qc.ca] has joined #tunes hi utop hi water are you familiar with tunes? i am reading your faq ;) okay 02:30pm good project hard project, but godd project well we have good intentions anyway ;) yes i'm working through a lot of tough issues along with a few of the others ;) only fare is french right ? yes he is french a few other members are french as well i found that some aspect of you project is similar to plan 9, it's right ? hm yes that's true although i don't get into that aspect personally * water/#tunes works on the language aspect slate yep although slate does address distribution and concurrency etc yes, a good mix of feature found in other language well its specs still under development 02:40pm although a good 75% of it will not change except in trivial ways k any comments or ideas? maibe i will be, but i didn't read all your doc yet :) ok o you have a samples of script write in slate, often looking a source file, is more instructive that read a spec on a web site not yet we work out ideas on this channel, which is publicly logged, but we haven't figured out the big picture with slate coding style yet i understand sorry for the poor quality of my english, my mother tongue is french no problem, we're used to visitors from other countries portuguese in particular for some odd reason open is open worldwide :) hm that reminds me what do you think would help a language to best support "extensible internationalization"? 02:50pm -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) hum, how do you found the gettext/nsl support in commun langage ? -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from forward.openprojects.net [02:55pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-184.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes still there? >>> water [water@tnt-9-184.tscnet.net] requested PING 953938581 from TUNES i'm hum, how do you found the gettext/nsl support in commun langage ? * what are you asking about gettext/nsl? yeah i picked it up from the logs il8n() is not very bad i found what is il8n()? a function for internationalisation what does it do? 03:00pm sample, il8n("my english txt"); u have a file as fr/my_app.po and inside you have : %my english text :mon texte anglais how well would it work on source code? (this is the issue i speak of... internationalization of source code) hum, ??? explain, i did'nt undernstant this question very well being able to express a program's source code in many different human languages ha ok i understand hum, each langage has is philosophy, is possible but very hard, you may cause error in phylosophy in translating a source code yes i read a paper by Jecel Assumpcao that explained an example of this 03:10pm translating C to pascal, or basic to C is very hard et often some principe in one langage are inexistant in another er sorry that's not what i meant like translating c or pascal or basic or smalltalk into french or russian or chinese or spanish yes i know oh i wanted to do a comparaison in source to source, and figure out how it will be to do this in source to human langage (i didn't tye very rapidly in english :) ok :) 03:20pm -:- Utopiste is now known as uto|away -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-128.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes hi nate hi do u know much about forth? enough I want to implement it on a 286 writting in asm and yes it's easy to code it from assembly :) including coding a asm in it? hm well i know that there are good compiler systems written in forth what i meant was... yes it should be pretty simple that I would need to program a assembler and a forth compiler both written in asm because it would need to convert the forth stuff to asm. opcodes plus the CODE part were it is written in asm you should mail tcn he's very much into that very thing perhaps I'm overthinking my RoomOS 03:40pm like every other os-developer :) i want to implement forth so that I can have it do something before I have all the i/o, memory mangement, file system, etc... implementd. then I can work on it more from the inside talk to tcn I suppose. tcn@tunes.org I'll be gone this weekend though (camping trip) yeah, I just got his email from the website s/the/his/ I have to leave in 15 minutes ok and I won't be back until sunday how old are you? 14 :) lol don't worry about writing an os in a hurry a hurry? you'll break some sort of guiness world record I just want to think about what I'm going to do over the weakend I still have to finish reading 3 books before I get real serios though fishing? :) nah just camping... boy scouts... troop rendavous... bunch of new scouts in the troop, I'll have time to relax and think :) I'm reading the tanenbaum book + a book on asm + a forth book which forth book? one I pick up at a library, "Forth: a text and reference" hm not the best one which is the best? good enough though look around at http://www.forth.org/ k 03:50pm the asm book is a huge one, covers from 8086 to 80486 and then has a bunch of stuff on graphics, i/o ports, pmode, interupts, the physical side of the chip (pins and everything), bunch of stuff. asm books are always huge unless you're coding for a 6502 or z80 ;) :) I picked it up at a university sci library.. better than the 50 pagers at local small librarys :0 I'll be running RoomOS on a 286 at least it has protected mode ever used geos? nope it's a prtected mode os with a gui that runs on 286's and 386's cool opensource? and it actually has an office suite nope abi geos freeware at least? hm abi doesn't have it i don't recall hmmm I'll probebly implement a gui after I get forth to work and my light switchers :) heh just remember to keep it simple (KIS) yeah :) will u be on sunday? most likely ok. I'll be on around 10:30 pm PST k I must go... my ride will be here any minute nice talking to u.. bye cya -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-128.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] 04:00pm * Fufie/#tunes yawns so what was all that about you being crazy? 04:20pm me? of course i mean you I am as sane as anyone.. i remember you being quite distraught a few days ago about something oh yes... that happens writing my damn thesis is going too slow oh what's the topic? the working title is "YA Hypermedia System - Why do I even bother?" lol and the thesis statement is .... ? it's a reflective hypermedia system though how does it reflect? it can rebuild itself depending on the data it is set to serve is it similar to a visual programming language in some way? it's not visual in any way ok so it's sort of dynamically polymorphic yes.. if you like :) then it's not reflective as a hypermedia system there's obviously a reflective core, of course if the system analyses itself and changes itself to an optimal structure it is reflective as I see it yes but the hypermedia aspect is totally un-involved in the reflection process as you describe it yes.. it's mostly a neat CS thingie which also happens to organise links and keep track of various media heh -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us712.javanet.com] has joined #tunes ok so you have a meta-hypermedia-system i'll buy that hi hcf but don't tell my advisor hi water lol he thinks I dabble with hypermedia :) well tread lightly then * Fufie/#tunes is tired 04:30pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1008.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1008.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1008.javanet.com] has joined #tunes well, i can't include a systematic co-inductive type system in slate yet 04:40pm * Fufie/#tunes crawls to bed.. goodnight cya foof maybe i can resolve the meta-object architecture ideas tonight 04:50pm hm stephen king proves that people in general are truly weak-minded drone 05:00pm you planning on resolving that? bmo's or weak-mindedness? :) both would be nice the second one needs something like <> healthier minds through meta-programming... a 12 step program to increase mental assertiveness assertiveness per se is not useful at all well, what is the opposite of drone-like? as for meta-objects hmmm open what is the current issue at hand? meta-object composition? have you read the recent posts to tunes about mo's ? yes composition as in guarana is fine with me haven't had time to look at guarana in detail yet, though there's not much to it still, nice to look at similar ideas to see how they work in practice sure but java is a static lang i thought the author aimed to make it somewhat language independent? (iirc) sure but a lot of the guarana docs and implementation relate specifically to java issues 05:10pm or are limited by java issues, from another perspective there's also lookup+apply vs send+receive send+receive uses a proxy object between the two objects for the message-send lookup+apply works strictly on the receive event, since it basically rewrites the method on the fly so the proxy object interprets both send+receive? basically i find it a bit odd since the point of it is to handle parallel and distributed computation policy, iirc but then i don't know how that's done in this case 05:20pm but... doesn't this proxy object amount to a meta-object? * water/#tunes shrugs sure, but what's it associated with? it seems to just resolve into lookup+apply to me with proxy being meta-object, send being lookup more or less, and receive being apply more or less as well yeah i thought that too for a while except the result of the send isn't propagated to the receive (afait) so where does it differ in practice? i don't know doh... but lookup has to have access to the object's slot dictionary which makes it unlike a send event which is supposed to be local to the sender (or no?) oh... so the send message is not sent to the proxy? read the email today or other date? 2-3 days ago i think he even states, "introducing and managing proxies isn't as simple, as we have later found out" 05:30pm not having luck finding mail in question -:- mathias [math@france2.hemmet.chalmers.se] has joined #tunes exact date would help :) 3/22/00 time 05:55 from alex, titles "Re: Slate comments" hi mathias hi water thanks water: so given a Sender and a Receiver of a message... the Sender's bmo gets the send notification, and the Receiver's bmo gets the receive notifcation? (but apparently not in guarana wrt "is not present in the core of Guarana") actually the message gets sent implicitly to the proxy, whose bmo can act there, and then gets resent to the destination object whose bmo works yet again well, either scheme would work, his or mine :) i disagree yours requires a bmo to intercept a send same with the proxy with the proxy, you don't need this complication the proxy's bmo must intercept the send but it doesn't it just gets sent the message as opposed to a 'send' message? hm maybe an example say i'm in a node in a network i'm this little object 'Billy' and i send a message to 'Sally' who's on another node 05:40pm the proxy of 'Sally' to Billy is just the same as 'Sally' at least this is what i'm getting out of this water: no, "Billy" will only use a stack, not send messages. although sometimes he sends messages about using a stack. fare: what do you mean? huh? no, nothing :) just passing by yeah making random comments as always water: this means distribution isn't as transparent, and does expose distribution concerns to the language well it reifies them yes eihrul: it's really difficult to make distribution completely transparent; if only because of network failures. at some point you'll want to control distribution and parallelism which is what i thought MOLDS was all about okay, so proxies aren't really part of the mop, but objects that solely exist for redirection and distribution concerns so they'd roughly correspond in some manner to how we use clones to bridge namespaces? well, that's the way i see it yes i think so abi: molds? fare: i haven't a clue fare: see guarana stuff hm i better tell abi water: so send+receive here is orthogonal to the mop, since it works in tandem with lookup+apply? abi guarana i think guarana is a meta-object architecture that allows for meta-object composition at http://www.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ eih: i think so, now before i wasn't sure about it metaobject composition is oxymoronic well how else do you describe guarana? I showed that in a report during my masters would you please express this to the tunes mailing list? reflection is intrinsically decompositional, not compositional. *AHEM* why? that's almost the definition of reflection. composing mo's has nothing to do with reflection it has to do with building mo's 05:50pm