IRC log started Tue Mar 21 00:00:01 2000
<eihrul> well, i always pictured it as the latter
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0321
<eihrul> though any permutation is appropriate :)
<water> perhaps i should mention all three to be clear
<water> i think slate will wind up being a mockery of oo
12:10am
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<hcf> water: semantics, s/address the question/addresses the question/
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<water> wow fast netsplit
<water> yeah maybe syntactic sugar would help
<eihrul> rmm, was referring to english vocabulary and structure :)
<water> oh
<water> you can work on that
<eihrul> rmm, out of my league :/
<eihrul> or more specifically, out of my scope of interest
12:20am
<eihrul> the UFO has returned
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<water> also i need to make sure that the slate laziness is controllable
<eihrul> 'controllable'?
<eihrul> as in inducing demand?
<water> yes
12:30am
<water> i suppose it amounts to meta-behavior of 'result'
<eihrul> well, demand still has to propagate upward
<eihrul> from the initial user-entered expression
<eihrul> though turning off demand could be an odd problem :/
<water> well laziness vs strictness only determines which closures an object gets when evaluated
<water> abi foldoc for lazy evaluation
<abi> lazy evaluation may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=lazy+evaluation
<eihrul> hmm, 5 more hours
<water> go to sleep
<eihrul> good idea
12:40am
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<water> hi smoke
12:50am
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<smoke> hi water
01:20am
<lar1> later!
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01:30am
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<Fufie> smoke: yes
<Fufie> afk 20 min though
01:10pm
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<Kidteck> Anyone know where I can get an online guide to BSDI?
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03:30pm
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<tcn> hey all
<XeF4> tcn
<eihrul> tcn: retro3 update?
<tcn> nope
04:30pm
<tcn> I might work on it now though
<XeF4> tcn: what was that microkernel *nix you pointed me at last nigiht?
<Fare> hum
<Fare> Xe: VSTa? L4? Mach?
<XeF4> vsta
<tcn> I wonder if VSTa supports a real filesystem yet (when I looked, you'd just install it in a directory under DOS)
<XeF4> url for vsta?
<tcn> vsta?
<Fare> at some point, it could read ext2 partitions
<tcn> hey where's our friend abi?
<Fare> Review/OSes.html#VSTa ?
<tcn> abi: vsta?
<abi> vsta is a microkernel OS made by Andy Valencia (www.zendo.com/vsta)
04:40pm
<Fare> hum. Anyone read my architecture1 draft?
<XeF4> no response from zendo.com
<XeF4> response
<Fare> abi: VSTa is also at http://www.chat.net/~jeske/VSTa/Welcome.html
<abi> okay, Fare.
<tcn> bye
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* Fare/#Tunes away 3053
04:50pm
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<rares> hello
05:40pm
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<water> hi guys
<eihrul> hey
<lar1> Heya
<water> i'm still getting over a migraine, so don' t expect me to be useful for an hour or so
<lar1> Ouch
<rares> can i trade your graine for mine
<water> heh
* lar1/#tunes doesn't get migraines... what causes them?
<water> in my case it's that i had to work with some nasty chemicals today
<water> even the breathing protection didn't help overall, though the noise was also a factor
<lar1> Umm... shouldn't it be illigal to expose you to that if it causes such?
<water> it only affected me that badly
<water> i.e. no one else had much of a problem with it
<lar1> Ah... hmm, weird?
<water> yeah its a combination of body chemistry and my own special mental sensitivities
<rares> man that weird I had a window over the channel and I read mental cavities
06:10pm
* lar1/#tunes just realized he spelled 'illigal' incorrectly...
* water/#tunes is afk (snoozing for a bit)
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<water> ok i'm pulling out of it
06:50pm
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
* water/#tunes drags the AlonzoTG icon to the Trash icon
<AlonzoTG> water, I need to learn more about metaprogramming.
<AlonzoTG> where would you point me?
<AlonzoTG> well where would you point someone ten times as smart as me but who still didn't know too much about metaprogramming...
<water> um why?
<water> btw there's no big central group of knowledge on meta-programming
<AlonzoTG> I'm investigating what it would take to develop a neural interface.
<AlonzoTG> oh!
<AlonzoTG> okay... that clears the waters some. 
<water> what does that have to do with meta-programming?
<AlonzoTG> you havn't studied the problem yet, have you?
<AlonzoTG> =P
<eihrul> water: it certainly makes literals obsolete
<water> i just don't know what you're talking about, i suppose
<water> the mind imo doesn't work well when thought of strictly as a computer
<AlonzoTG> Well with a neural interface, in  my theory, I hope that you will be able to think "I want the computer to do this", And then using your desire as a specification the computer will be able to generate a program that does what you want. 
<water> otoh i am more involved with the information-processing aspect (e.g.arrow)
<water> oh you mean arrow ;)
<AlonzoTG> In my studies of computers the only thing a computer lacks, in order to be self-programming, is intention.
<AlonzoTG> with a neural interface the user can directly supply intention that hopefully a computer can base a logical construct on.
<water> hah
<water> i disagree based on a lot of work i've seen by the folli people
07:10pm
<AlonzoTG> folli people?
<water> as well as the work of cog sci people
<AlonzoTG> How does their work disagree with mine?
<water> abi jolli
<abi> somebody said jolli was the Journal of Logic, Language, and Info at http://www.folli.uva.nl/Jolli/
<water> well, define intention
<AlonzoTG> I flunked my second linear algebra test today. =(
<AlonzoTG> I'll write a webpage on that in a few days...
<water> there's a lot of work already on defining intention, atg
<water> it's a relative concept
<water> you might do well to look up "montague semantics"
<water> or any other related idea in linguistics
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<water> actually pcp might also give you some good ideas
<water> abi pcp
<abi> pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
<water> hey hcf
<hcf> hey
<AlonzoTG> my parents are going to throw me out of the house because I don't have a job and can't pass any classes. =(
<water> atg: join the navy ;)
<eihrul> prison might be more hospitable
<water> lol true
<XeF4> AlonzoTG: can't pass classes?
<water> yeah the air force or army are better
<AlonzoTG> I hate the government and all it stands for.
07:20pm
<water> yeah, like protecting suburbanite wastes like yourself ;)
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<water> anyway....
<water> hm i don't suppose with all these people on #tunes that someone actually wants to talk about Tunes, eh?
<eihrul> i guess i could handle some more slate discussion if you have some :)
<water> hm i'm not sure i have more to add just yet... a lot of my thoughts are experimental
<water> i'm definitely going to get Jecel's opinion about quoting, shaping, and structural meta-objects
<water> it um also seems that if i want arrow that i need a new primitive perhaps
<water> like an existential quantifier or something like that
<XeF4> water: it's too late to talk about tunes
<water> i was pondering how to have the rational numbers in slate today
<water> xef4: why is that?
<AlonzoTG> intensional logics sounds like an oxymoron
<water> well Anyway...
<water> it seems that co-inductive ideas in slate require some sort of way to quantify things or hm
<water> n/m i'll think on it and get back to whomever is interested
07:30pm
<XeF4> water: because I'm going to bed in 10min
* water/#tunes is nonplussed
<water> okay thanks for sharing
<XeF4> <water> xef4: why is that?
<water> i know that
<ult> water: So your saying your minused?
<water> i thought it pointless that you made the original comment in light of the reason and your silence
* water/#tunes thwaps ult with www.dictionary.com
<ult> water: You ought to learn to take a joke.
<water> what for? so i can be a lazy #tunes troll?
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<ult> yes!
<ult> And some day you might even be able to troll in other channels -- and perhaps even on USENET!
* rares/#tunes thwaps #tunes with some of his cognac
<rares> be merry
07:40pm
<lar1> Ins't cognac vile?
<lar1> ult:  Nah, /. is a much better fourm for trolling!
<ult> cognac is wonderful
<rares> cognac is great if you take it slowly and warm it up a bit
<rares> and no it doesn't come in six pack
07:50pm
<ult> nah cognac is like brandy or something
<ult> ya don't chug it.
<ult> I have some really good recipes that use cognac
<water> hm 3TB/sec
<rares> how?
<rares> I want some of those terabits
<rares>  /sec
<rares> that is
<water> what for?
<rares> umm speed
<water> speed of what?
<rares> hm 3TB/sec
<water> yeah wtf are you going to do with it?
<rares> I need speed for getting stuff to work
<water> that's enough to probably pipe your vision around
<rares> it's probably the cognac talking
<rares> i just has some
<rares> it's good
<water> well shut it the F*** up
<XeF4> cognac?
<water> oh god
<rares> so what are ya working on water
<water> xef4: why are you on #tunes at all?
<rares> okay seriously what else does slate need
<water> lol as if *you* could address the problems i'm looking at
<rares> shoot go ahead
<XeF4> water: some passive interest in Tunes
* ult/#Tunes hmms
<ult> water your rather abrasive
<water> rares: what's your background?
<rares> he's frustrated
<water> ult your rather correct
<water> eih: btw i'm making the mutator a slot of tha accessor to support the slate object model
<water> instead of having the mutator be a separate slot
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08:00pm
* eihrul/#tunes hmms.
<eihrul> yes, that occured to me last night
<rares> mostly in C/Asm, but some Lisp however I have spent a lot of time on objects from different perspectives
<water> i should have changed it some time ago, but it didn't explicitly occur to me
<eihrul> water: it also prevents the meta-object from having to create a mess of phantom slots
<water> rares: i coded a slate prototype in college over four years ago when i first saw the tunes.org stuff
<water> hm true
<rares> i coded a 3-D lib in Qbasic when I was 14
<water> um yeah that's relevant
<rares> :/ 
<rares> anyways
<rares> so you want to avoid having to create a bunch of slots to bootstrap operations on objects
<water> well we want to keep the language system as coherent as possible
<water> it should reflect a certain conceptual structure that unifies a lot of ideas
<rares> okay
<water> (unification being one of those tunes spec points)
<lar1> Does anyone think it would be cool if the review project was tied in with abi?  So could say "abi: Common Lisp?" and she would tell me what cl is and how its different from Lisp.
<rares> phantom objects are like unnecessary wasted resources if you open up shell windows instead of just clicking on an icon
<water> lar1: or you could just use the review :)
<eihrul> lar1: good luck... water couldn't complain he's the only one working on tunes anymore though :)
<water> rares: not sure i follow
<lar1> water:  True... I'm lazy though ;)
<eihrul> rares: 3 words: data flow analysis
<lar1> eihrul:  Umm, doesn't core supposedly do review?
<rares> i know
<water> *supposedly": yes
<eihrul> core has also been gone for 74 days
<lar1> ...and counting!
<eihrul> though, perhaps he updates the pages none-the-less...
<rares> what i'm saying is I often have some stuff I do as root and i always have these useless shells left over when I accidentally close the window instead of exiting the shells
<eihrul> wow, updated March 3
<eihrul> that means he's holding out on us...
<rares> or he's been captured by aliens
<eihrul> or worse... by suits
<lar1> Or suited aliens!
<rares> Dolphin will eat clementine film at 11
* lar1/#tunes ponders making that...
08:10pm
<eihrul> so... mutators/accessors... :)
<rares> sounds good to me
<rares> otherwise you'll have those phantoms hanging aroiund like vestigial organs
<eihrul> rmmm, that was a call for more discussion, if there was some... not a reaffirmation
<water> didn't i explain mutators in slate already?
<eihrul> yes
<water> so what do you want to discuss about them?
<eihrul> rmm, nada... was just restarting signal
<water> oh
<water> hm not sure where to go, but i'm writing right now
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* rares/#tunes thinks
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08:20pm
<rares> well what be missing?
<rares> can you make an object and do something to it with what you have?
<water> yes
<rares> efficiently?
<rares> (trying to narrow down)
<water> sure i could just emulate it in smalltalk or self
<water> with a little overhead, less than interpretation
<rares> like can you make that object do something to another object based on constraints?
<water> grrr
<water> yes you can already do that in smalltalk or self
<rares> that's not what I mean
<rares> basedf on what you already defined in slate
<water> yes
<rares> okay
* rares/#tunes thinks
<water> what i have in slate is already that of self and beta
<eihrul> water: hrmm, that seems to be a nice benefit of lazy evaluation... setting accessors would not be possible otherwise it seems
<eihrul> or atleast, as far as i see
<water> what do you mean, eih?
<eihrul> well, the result would be forced out of the accessor
<water> whenever you mute it?
<eihrul> when it is accessed
<water> oh well sure
<water> but i don't think that is laziness per se
<eihrul> on second thought, neither do i
<eihrul> but the accessor model itself
<water> laziness seems to have more to do with functional expressions (our object constructors) being evaluated either as soon as possible after declared or when needed
08:30pm
<eihrul> though, it was actually possible to do something similar in earlier formulations of slate
<eihrul> however, the mechanism to do it would have entailed returning temporary slot objects which are less elegant :)
<water> hm how so?
<water> oh the accessor stuff?
<eihrul> well, the accessors conveniently exist already
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08:40pm
<water> abi shape
<abi> shape is, like, at http://linus.socs.uts.edu.au/~shape/shape.html
<eihrul> reminds me, need to look at fish some time
09:00pm
<water> it's not spectacular at all
<water> it just demonstrates shape ideas in a basic way
<eihrul> yes, that's the idea :)
<water> oh heh :)
09:10pm
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<water> anyone familiar with using pseudo-objects?
09:50pm
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<water> hm hello zag
10:00pm
<Zagreus> hey water
<eihrul> water: pseudo-object?
<water> eih: prozies for objects not in the system
<water> er proxies even :)
<water> actually root serves the same purpose for slate
<water> zag: got questions?
<water> zag: do you live in vistoria?
<water> i mean victoria
<Zagreus> I live close to victoria.. if by victoria you mean victoria, BC
<water> yes. i live in seattle
<Zagreus> cool
<Zagreus> I'm in the equivalently large city known as Vancouver :P
<water> heh
<Zagreus> what part of seattle? hopefully not redmond :)
<water> no, i live on beacon hill, near downtown
<Zagreus> oh cool, beacon hill
<Zagreus> to expensive for my tastes :P
<water> heh
<water> so are you familiar with tunes?
<Zagreus> I'm still trying to figure out what it really is :
<Zagreus> s/:/:\//
<water> well i can answer questions
<Zagreus> is it more or less a new OS, with new programming language, etc.?
<water> an os based on a programming language
<Zagreus> oic.. kinda like UNIX and C, really
<water> where you can customize everything, including the language, using reflection
<water> ack!!!
<water> no
<water> c is a lame language... the differences are so great as to be qualitative
<Zagreus> but still, I was talking about the interwoven greatly related nature of UNIX and C
<Zagreus> not the quality of UNIX or C.
<water> hm i suppose so
<Zagreus> C was written for UNIX, UNIX was written in C.. you sort of get my point here :)
<Zagreus> anyway, d'you work on tunes?
<water> yeah but i'm still disgusted :)
<water> yes i do
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<water> i also work on a project called arrow, although that's more experimental than tunes
<Zagreus> oic
<water> but i am currently developing the slate language for both tunes and arrow
<nate37> hey ya
<water> hi nate
<Zagreus> hey nate37
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10:10pm
<water> hey hcf are you there?
<hcf> yes
<water> Zagreus is interested in doing a linux.com interview
<water> what do you think?
<water> i tend to think that tunes does not need publicity right now, but he thinks otherwise (for reasons i do not know)
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> maybe it could help with getting people on the project
<hcf> tunes ppl dont wont more ppl
<hcf> if they did, they would advert
<hcf> and such
<hcf> either that
<lar1> hcf:  Tunes needs more waters...
<hcf> or their just too fucking lazy to advert
<water> zag: i know it seems odd, but tunes has a unique kind of development direction
<hcf> water: yeah, ur the direction and thats it
<water> we actually do lots of cs research
<water> yeah well Fare does do some interesting work
<Zagreus> yeah, it seems quite heavy on the theoretical, if you know what I mean
<water> zag: if you'll notice, we have an infobot stuffed with cs research factoids
<water> abi: what is self?
<abi> self is probably a prototype-based object system at http://www.sun.com/research/self/ or old mirror at http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/oocsb/self/
<water> (for example)
<hcf> got plenty of links, but noone is doing anything w/ 'em
10:20pm
<water> hcf: i use them
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<water> mostly to teach others, which is often what this channel is mainly good for
<water> hm so should we do this interview?
<hcf> water: i dont see u adding any reviews
<Zagreus> heh
<water> hcf: no, that's true
<water> hcf: but i'm steeped into getting ideas about Slate worked out
<water> and Tril claims to be developing a new system for review anyway
<hcf> water: all that has resulted is the slate web docs
<hcf> ur notes on mops and everything could help others if they were publicly available
<water> hcf: heh. my notes on mops aren't very extensive
<hcf> water: tril has claimed that for a year
<water> i could ramble like Fare if necessary of course ;)
<water> hcf: he has?
<hcf> water: basically
<hcf> theres been talk of bettering the review, the site, and things since i came here
<water> well someone please give me a .plan because i have enough on my plate as it is
<hcf> but nothing more than talk
<water> i know
<water> how long have you been with tunes anyway?
<hcf> approx 12.98
<hcf> probly 2months b4 that
<water> ok i joined in october of 98
<water> of course i knew of tunes way back in '94
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<water> honestly, though, if i wrote out a review of slate's mop when it gets done, it would probably rival AMOP
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<water> zag: is anything we're saying making much sense?
10:30pm
<water> hcf: what can we agree on, then?
<hcf> would agreeing change anything?
<water> i hate statements like that
<lar1> later!
<water> bye lar
-:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.141.232.SanJose1.Level3.net] has left #tunes []
<water> abi tell Zagreus about squeak
<Zagreus> abi what is linux?
<abi> zagreus: wish i knew
<Zagreus> heh
10:40pm
<water> abi doesn't know about really common stuff
<water> zag: seen my home page?
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> water: nope, what's the url?
<water> abi water
<water> hm
<water> abi: me?
<abi> i don't know, water
<Zagreus> go go abi helicopter!
<hcf> abi: water's home page?
<abi> well, water's home page is at http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> ah
-:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-43.ici.net] has joined #tunes
<Zagreus> abi Zagreus
<hcf> oh god
<water> hcf: ?
<hcf> dont let this become yet another bot play session
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> we do that a lot when a bot enters our staff channel :)
* Zagreus/#tunes plugs in water's address into mapqest
<Zagreus> mapquest even
<Zagreus> water: ever been to winthrop the city?
<water> no
<Zagreus> it's awesome
<Zagreus> it's on the cascade loop, just east of burlington or something
<water> ok
<Zagreus> it's like a tourist town.. everything's all western-like
<Zagreus> like, saloons and stuff
<water> what sort of scope will this interview have, btw?
<water> that's odd
<Zagreus> it won't include winthrop
<Zagreus> :P
<Zagreus> but I'll probably ask questions about the open source projects you're working on, primarily tunes
<water> ok good
<Zagreus> it'll be much like a "hacker profile" of sorts
<water> the other stuff would freak most people out
<Zagreus> heh, a little too complex?
<water> by a long shot
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> tunes is getting a little out there.. I'll probably have a lot of questions like "what does that mean?" "what does that imply?" "what are the practical implications?" etc.
<water> well it's not quite that abstract
<Zagreus> yeh
<Zagreus> if I can grasp it, anyone can
<Zagreus> anyway.. allow me to think up the questions
<water> most of the problems involve integration of different programming technologies that only get implemented in small research projects
<water> ok
<Zagreus> thanks for your time
<water> i spend as much time as i can on tunes
10:50pm
<water> eih: are you still there?
<water> oh well
<hcf> beep him
<water> hm it's not urgent
<hcf> he was active in #dolphin a min ago
<Zagreus> water: alrighty, let's begin :)
<water> ok
<Zagreus> water: Brian Rice, right?
<water> yes
<Zagreus> alrighty
<Zagreus> How would you describe the TUNES project?
<water> Well, we're working on a programming language-based operating system where reflection makes the user and programmer as powerful as possible.
<water> The key words are reflection and unification.
<Zagreus> (btw, you can finish your answers with "done" so I don't step all over them with the next question :P)
<water> oh ok
<water> done
<Zagreus> What exactly is reflection and unification, in this context?
<water> Well, reflection is a general concept of a system that opens up and modifies itself at some point.
<water> Ordinarily in a programming system, the programmers and users do all of this.
<water> But if the language is unified, then programs can access and understand any other kinds of programs in the system, down to the os code.
11:00pm
<eihrul> water: rmm, sort of still here
<water> A unified language, by the way, is one similar to Smalltalk or Lisp, where every part of the system is built of the same kind of thing.
<water> Anyway, this makes maintaining and adapting your entire system very simple (as opposed to complex).
<water> done
<water> sorry, got long-winded
<Zagreus> np, it's good stuff :)
<Zagreus> How does this compare to the better-known term "genetic algorithm?"
<eihrul> water: was window-hopping
<water> eih: np, i just thought you'd like to be here
* eihrul/#tunes looks back up the logs.
<eihrul> tunes getting press? :)
<water> Well, genetic algorithms have basic building blocks, but the situation is qualitatively different.
<eihrul> though reflection could be seen as supplying building blocks >:)
<water> The programmer exposes these basic kinds of things to an unrestricted set of factors from the external world.
<water> eih: yes good point
<water> So genetic algorithms wind up with new combinations of these basic things that ordinary reasoning would find very difficult to produce and adapt, which is a great thing.
<water> However, it doesn't address the suitability of the kinds of basic things that one has to deal with.
<water> Reflection allows you to re-compile those combinations in order to produce a new set of basic behaviors without having to deal with the usual overhead of simulation upon the original simulation.
<water> eih, hcf: can you guys add something to that?
<water> actually, it seems good enough that way, done
<eihrul> unless he has specific questions as to meaning, i think it was verbose enough
<Zagreus> water: What prompted the development of this project?
<water> heh
<Zagreus> :)
<water> Well, like anything in the open-source world, it was the complexity of dealing with existing systems.
11:10pm
<water> However, Tunes doesn't just address the usual problems with adapting operating systems and software (and even programming language implementations)...
<water> It's supposed to deal with the syntax and semantics of programming languages themselves, and to open them up so that the user can adapt those things themselves.
<water> done
<water> btw, note that there is useful info in the faq
<Zagreus> noted
<Zagreus> What part of the TUNES project do you work on?
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> Well, I'm working on Tunes' high-level language (HLL) subproject, where we're working out a basic design and implementation of a language that can support Tunes.
<eihrul> abi: slate?
<abi> somebody said slate was a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1016.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> Yes, Slate is the name of my proposal for the Tunes HLL. The alternative has been a reflective variant of Scheme. Slate provides an unorthodox approach to overcome Scheme's limitations.
<water> done
<Zagreus> What would be that unorthodox approach? [or is this asking for gobble-de-gook? :P]
<water> Hehe
<water> Well a lot of languages try to take functional programming and mix it together with pure object-orientation.
<water> Well, those are research languages and they usually don't work well enough for the real world.
<water> I took a very simple object model from the Self language and added to it the features that allowed it to rival the designs of the Lisp and Beta languages, basically.
<water> Well, the design is not complete, yet, but that overall picture will remain quite applicable.
<water> done
11:20pm
<Zagreus> How do you except TUNES to be used in a practical environment?
<Zagreus> expect even
<water> Now that's an interesting question, because most people haven't dealt with a system with properties like Tunes.
<water> When people here of the Smalltalk language, there's a lot of talk of "objects to the bottom".
<water> hear, even
* eihrul/#tunes boggles.
<eihrul> how would tunes be used in a practical environment? :)
<water> oops
<water> :)
<eihrul> you could probably write research papers on how to properly use tunes...
* water/#tunes pauses to think about this one
<water> Well, it basically means that the experience of using the programming language extends everywhere in the system, but also that the language extends itself to everywhere in the system.
<water> For instance, advanced Lisp programmers have used for a long time powerful tools like macros and the Common Lisp Object System to create embedded languages that make writing programs in specific domains simpler.
<water> Tools like this change the results of experimentally programming into a useful library of tools that actually form a new language.
<water> Tunes is about this kind of extensibility, instead of writing all sorts of new binary libraries.
<water> done :)
<water> no, tunes is anything but simply-explained
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> on to non-tunes stuff
<water> whole books have been written on that lisp stuff
<water> ok
<Zagreus> yeh
<Zagreus> What kind of a programming language is Squeak? What do you use it for?
<water> Well, Squeak's not a language, it's a kind of self-contained environment for the Smalltalk-80 system that came from the Xerox PARC Labs in the '70s. It's the same system where the modern GUI was developed.
<water> s/Smalltalk-80 system/Smalltalk-80 language/
<Zagreus> s/What kind of a programming language is/How would you define/ :P
<eihrul> "objects to the bottom"
11:30pm
<water> Well, Squeak's an open-source environment that runs identically on at least a dozen OS's without any change to the Smalltalk source code.
<water> When you open a Squeak interpreter, you essentially get a hosted Smalltalk-80 operating system with its own interface and integrated development environment.
<water> zag: oh hm
<eihrul> most curiously, a Squeak interpreter that Squeak writes itself :)
<water> zag: yeah the above stuff still applies
<Zagreus> cool
<water> Right, the source for the interpreter is produced at run-time from the Smalltalk sources in the environment. The output is Ansi-C which gets modified to take advantage of the particular native OS.
<water> s/is produced/can be produced/
<water> Squeak also hosts a lot of experimental ideas that its patron company, Disney, is interested in promoting for educational use.
<water> done
<Zagreus> What do you think of Disney's involvement in Squeak?
<water> Well, I know how a lot of people feel about big corporations, and I have to say I feel the same in general.
<water> But Disney has kept the license very liberal and supported the Squeak community excellently, so I don't think there will ever be a problem.
<water> Of course, I definitely appreciate Disney's hiring the Squeak team, as it measn more dedicated involvement in Squeak.
<water> done
<water> btw, i am hardly a squeak spokes-person
<Zagreus> what do you do for squeak btw?
<water> mostly i give feedback on code and ideas
<water> yes, a lowly beta-tester :)
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> the ones with all the opinions
<Zagreus> heh
<Zagreus> :P
<water> Well, I try not to make unneeded noise.
<Zagreus> anyway
<Zagreus> I believe that concludes the questions I had
<water> ok
11:40pm
<Zagreus> what os do you use btw?
* Zagreus/#tunes versions water
<water> well i use win98 because my modem doesn't work with my other two oses
<water> but otherwise i like using beos and linux
<water> disappointing that i use win98?
<eihrul> disappointing that there is scarcely anything else to use...
<Zagreus> heh
<eihrul> and i suppose that was the original purpose of the tunes project... "chicken and the egg"....
<water> yeah basically
<water> well, it started with moose before that
<water> but moose didn't have a well-understood goal
<water> lol most people don't understand tunes' goal either :)
<water> but enough people do
<water> anyway every tunes discussion is on-line
<water> every idea i've ever discussed on the mailing list can be had for free
* Zagreus/#tunes takes a look
<water> zag: so is this blather printable?
<Zagreus> oh yea
<Zagreus> I'll fix0r it up
<water> btw the irc logs are online as well
<Zagreus> and put it on linux.com/interviews
<Zagreus> no worry, I saved the buffer
<water> okay
<Zagreus> thanks so much for your time and your answers!
<water> i do this kind of thing for all the newbies
<water> heh i just pictured a flood of linux.com readers
<water> hey zag, have you heard of sleater-kinney?
<Zagreus> no I haven't
<water> they're a washington grrrl punk rock band
11:50pm
<water> anyway
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
<water> that's odd
* water/#tunes returns to working on slate web-docs
<water> oh yeah thanks, eihrul
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> bleh midnight already
<eihrul> yeah... school in 5 hours
<water> hey zag, we're off the record, right?
<Zagreus> yea
<water> ok good
<water> eih: i wonder how zag would react if he knew what my job is? ;)
<water> anyway i work in the navy right now. on nuclear reactors
<water> hm i guess that's not as shocking as i thought it would be :)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0322
IRC log ended Wed Mar 22 00:00:00 2000