IRC log started Sat Mar 18 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0318 -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- water [water@tnt-10-77.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes is anyone still around? i'm here, as requested thx did you read any of the emails i sent? i read 'em what do ya think? over my head as usual damn well n/m then, thanks very much for sticking arounf s/arount/around/ hm you noticed the debian crap in the logs i see quite insulting esp since fare partook i was just about to say that :) hm so is today some sort of weird holiday/party day? dunno i heard someone mention green beer 12:50am oh well do u expect Fare to actually do any refining of tunes docs? sorry hcf the conversation i had planned i am not ready to go into no not really >>> water [water@tnt-10-77.tscnet.net] requested PING 953369457 from TUNES i thought over a lot of issues tonight and i'm not sure where to take it aside from going forward with slate and then moebius/arrow this relates to the tunes hll spec? well slate certainly does does anyone care about the tunes-hll? ah that reminds me that i'm probably near ready to finish the slate as hll post i think iepos does but he thinks combinators are everything as well as bill tanksley fare should and tril tril's busy with college it seems and fare's busy in his insane little phd world what happened to beholder? he said he would drop in on the channel sometimes but i've not seen him since abi seen beholder beholder was last seen on IRC 14 days, 7 hours, 19 minutes and 8 seconds ago, saying: HEhe [Fri Mar 3 17:35:52 2000] QED it was odd that i saw this really interesting book on the psychology of mathematical infinities but there was no mention anywhere of induction or co-induction in it go figure i really need to put in that formal statement to the navy about me having a second job of sorts it might make a big difference in how i'm treated at work second job? but unpaid open-source advocacy of high-level semantics hardly counts as a second job for them wasnt/isnt arrow a job too? i have to say something formally however yes that's included 01:00am perhaps i should throw in inventor as a term with luck it will make enough of a signal for them to try to get rid of me dalvarez: u awake? hm i beeped him, but no response he arrived recently, should be alive * Fufie/#tunes yaawns good morning fufie good morning :) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-77.tscnet.net]) 01:10am -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-33.vpn.uib.no]) ltr -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) * dalvarez/#tunes has been in school until now and at your service... 01:30am -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-123.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes hello -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-123.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] 03:00am -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-143.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes ah... that's better.. hello? anybody alive? 03:10am -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn169.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hello nate37: what's up? nothing. why? cause you're asking three times in a row for attention what makes everyone think you have to say something extremely relevant hmmm sorry.. just bored. 03:30am + Etymologically, reflection is first about turning back the image of another object; since the phenomenon was mostly used to see oneself with mirrors (the alternate spelling reflexion is preferred for the optical phenomenon), it has come to mean applying to oneself (see reflexive). From there, it has come to mean not just to see oneself's physical image, but also to examine one's own mental state (early 17th century), and quickly applied to thinking in general (late 17th century), and has been used for well considered thought in general, although still keeping as an alternative this meaning of thinking about one's thoughts. + In Computer Science, Reflection is the domain of programs that (effectively or potentially) describe and manipulate "themselves", or other related programs. This notion extends to programs the philosophical notion of Reflection of human thought that can apply to itself. The idea is not quite new, and has been used by the founding fathers of formal logic and computer science in their early theorems on the power and limits of reasoning and computation (Cantor, Gvdel, Turing, etc). + We sometimes say reflective for potentially reflective, and likewise say reflection instead of potential 03:50am program. + A programming language or an operating system is called reflective if suited to reflective metaprogramming, that is, if it has provides programs some special ability to read and write themselves or other related programs. Actually, such reflection is often obtained as an interesting side effect of a more general and -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Excess Flood) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) 04:00am -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-143.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn169.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-177.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-177.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-9-215.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes hi dalvarez water: greetings 07:10am anything on your mind? -:- water_ [water@tnt-9-247.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes damn -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-215.tscnet.net]) -:- water_ is now known as water 07:20am water: sure hm you posted something interesting last night after hcf and fufie and i left i can't remember i looked in the irc logs going to read the logs - bbs was it that why you beeped me this morning (hcf wanted to talk to me too but I don't know why) while I was in school? no we wanted to ask you some questions btw if you're in school, why be on irc? I'm there in the brakes hm ok checked the logs - they don't know of anything... http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/2000.0318 ? you posted something about reflection, perhaps from the tunes glossary, and were flooded ahh... that was intendet to be contained in a msg but didn't work oh was strange so what's onn your mind? there was a guy asking what reflection means so I gave a brief explanation to him, told him to read the stuff on tunes.org, and passed him the glossary entry - nothing more oh ok anything you'd care to discuss then? 07:30am then the flood protection kicked me ass and put me into #tunes in half a second again nothing to diskuss by now, no k I had some ideas about distributed scheduling speedup but didn't yet work them out -:- mathias [math@france2.hemmet.chalmers.se] has joined #tunes -:- mathias [math@france2.hemmet.chalmers.se] has left #tunes [] 07:40am and maybe in the end they turn out to be impracticabel hm i sort of like this idea called demand-driven concurrency for pure lazy functional languages you synchronize at function calls waiting for argument evaluation which can occur in distributed threads transparently how does lisp relate to reentrancy problems (I don't make any assumptions about low-level data representation) ? i don't think it does relate sophisticated... but you can check the common lisp documents (there's stuff on concurrency) on line I'm reading all time and will hopefully soon reach advanced issues 08:00am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp144.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us216.javanet.com] has joined #tunes good morning mornin my phone line got some weird noise last night that's why i was cut off 09:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-196.s196.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hm. another paper that address a lot of things related to infinity and laziness that references induction and recursion but no co-induction or co-recursion 10:20am fyi for whoever's listening: i think i'm going to allow circularity of references everywhere, but still keep a way to classify slots that helps to define a conceptual hierarchy to aid intuitive understanding (within slate, i mean) of course this means the directory-style syntax will get fully generalized to a relational algebra (basically a more freeform syntax) hcf: btw, how does my html editor screw up the code? reformats the poop in within ie meta tags hm or so i recall * water/#tunes looks for a better html editor why, wanna edit the tunes web pages? no just slate darn otoh i suppose i could work on tunes, but i'm already doing most everything else i suppose i could just modify a copy of tunes docs on my own account 10:30am that way there's no screwing around with cvs or political bullshit with Fare sound do-able? i ges heh don't sound so enthusiastic :) ;) seriously i don't want to screw around with yet another source of complexity hm are there any good wysiwyg html editors out there? i wouldnt know oh goodie deja is down does mozilla provide a wysiwyg editor? 10:40am hm they do 10:50am there's amaya as well how good is it? haven't used it before, but i've heard nothing bad said of it www.w3.org/Amaya/ it's netscape's but not mozilla? hm i found it on netscape.com as well wow it looks quite nice 11:00am hm mozilla looks quite odd 11:10am hm and still unstable 11:20am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250177.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey tcn hey just signed on to grab a better text editor than pico :) what are you getting? nano & joe pico is awsome! they're all crap :) 11:50am nano's like pico but it has search&replace ooh sigh :0 hehe pico is the ms-dos of the editors smalltalk makes a good text editor ;) ed is allright heh.. I used ed at work last week tcn: read /usr/share/emacs/*/etc/JOKES ? :) hmm lessee haven't gotten to the emacs jokes yet -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 24 Oct 29 1929 /bin/ed -rwxr-xr-t 4 root 1310720 Jan 1 1970 /usr/ucb/vi -rwxr-xr-x 1 root 5.89824e37 Oct 22 1990 /usr/bin/emacs the dates are a nice touch :) could you spew noise somewhere else please? there's no signal yeah but noise is noise when i'm going through the logs yeah what else do you expect on IRC though? if someone has anything serious they take it to email 12:00pm it doesn't take much effort to make or go to a new channel it *does* take effort to move the logger hmm try #osdev or #dolphin or something i guess i don't much give a shit because i don't read all the logs - just when i get cut off find something else to worry about rmm, it's called courtesy, tcn... sometimes other people appreciate it -:- leilani_18 [leilani_18@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has joined #tunes hello leilani IM PORTUGUESE -:- leilani_18 [leilani_18@lsanca1-ar2-059-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net] has left #tunes [] heh haha That was interesting OPN is getting spill-over from efnet, now, it seems 12:10pm OPN? oh Heh ya just can't win how are they learning of opn, though? i remember stuff like that happening more a year ago anyone here know ADA ? smoke: wan't that the DoD pascal-like crap? yeah i think all the ada specs are online dalvarez: i have no idea. the tunes review page has no real content regarding ada. 12:20pm heard they had to explode a rocket because of a program failure or something... -:- Kaufmann [newbie@200.224.105.142] has joined #tunes yes ada is a huge language Foo Bar baaz oooh, Ada :) yeah the big bulky language with every possible whizbang feature added to impress the generals heh water: so you have used it? I like "whizbang" Americans have all sorts of cool onomatopeic words the A merican D ental A ssociantion is at ada.org smoke: no, but look at the spec and decide if it's worth it :) dalvarez: there's www.gnuada.org and www.adahome.com http://www.adapower.com/ Kaufmann: well, that's because they are the only words many americans can correctly spell eihrul, oh I see what's up kauf? have you read my posts? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us216.javanet.com]) water, to the mailing list? -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us216.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 12:30pm yeah yep what do you think? Omigod... a Scotch tape hard disk surprise: AMD seems to run its site on a plan9 ... water, about what, specifically? The original post? sure i suppose comment on whatever you'd like uhrm... well, I think that, while Slate will definitely fulfill the HLL specs, they're vague enough that you'll still have to provide justification for many of your design choices, once Slate r1 is completed, before it's adopted as the official Tunes HLL. (Not that _I_ don't like it. I'm just saying that it could have been done differently, and there'll probably be people who will think it _should_ have.) yikes shorter sentences please -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250177.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] well by the time i'm done with the post i'll have explained everything in detail (note that it's only part one of three) 12:40pm hey, I worked very hard to learn how to write long sentences for my papers! heh before then, I was a very laconic person Kaufmann: yes, but you've not learned the art of punctuation wrt run-on sentences :) kauf: what about the language in particular? eihrul, hey! There are _6_ commas there! That's plenty of punctuation many of them could denote the end of a sentence rather than a pause in (but anyway) kauf: nothing, then? oops, sorry I was on another channel no, I can't really say much one way or the other about Slate why not? because I don't have the necessary background 12:50pm -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (night) like almost everyone else in tunes well then i must work this out with bill t, iepos, jecel, and whoever else I suppose c'est la vie screw that LOL "c'est la vie" "screw that" if nothing else, talking to you is always a surprse wish i could say likewise LOL I'll just sit here and pretend not to be offended... heh -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Read error to lar1[dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net]: No route to host) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ Gakuk, Tril! kukag * Fare/#Tunes is doing too much politics, and not enough coding tril! I was too.. now I've stopped * Fare/#Tunes is an active classical liberal -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.131.16.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes (US people would say "libertarian") * Kaufmann/#tunes is just sitting down, listening to Queen, and having his dullness thrown at his face by water 01:00pm what're you up to, tril? water: I've been working on trying to do TUNES research as an undergraduate degree. My CS professor is heavily discouraging it :) why would they? i'm not surprised, i had the same experience Tril: what does your CS professor think of TUNES? Yeah, I had the same experience, too He earnestly believes that a CS degree is a solid foundation for further research,which I should do in graduate school. happily my boss is not a professor. He's an industrial researcher. Tril: sure. However, a CS degree involve a term project. Instead, my insane goal is now to get some working TUNES code before I finish a CS degree, which will then be part of graudate school application :) Tril: in how many years? eihrul: 1.5 to 2 * eihrul/#tunes laughs. hence "insane" so where is tunes going? tril: u have the same time frame s/u/i 2 more military years Oh, I should publish this paper I wrote this quarter on the list. so where is tunes going? I wrote the proposal for how to do TUNES research in my undergraduate degree. It will explain my idea of where tunes was going why haven't you mailed me in the last two months, btw? Tril: any comment on how to make my Arch+Refl+MetaGC paper readable? water: busy with deadlines, I guess exactly everybody concerned with tunes is too busy to put in the time Fare Whu? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us216.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) i have a programming language in development that i'm going to mold into the hll and i need some sort of support, tril -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us946.javanet.com] has joined #tunes ok and discussions with Fare have 5-minute lag times fare was talking about his architecture1 paper well, it's a rambling draft but then the slate docs are still not put-together well tril: i assume you haven't even been following my explanations of slate at all 01:10pm hum * Fare/#Tunes just booted on another machine how fascinating two weeks ago, I had no machine, but now I have two of them once again. water: I know the basic idea but, you are basically correct ah well, I've been kicked around enough for the day... I'm off I have some time now, so I'll read them soon all right well i want the tunes web docs to get a hell of a lot more specific apparently even fare's opinions have changed in the last 2-3 years since he last updated tunes specs Fare, wanna give me one? of course my opinions evolve! (in the right direction, I hope) the point is that the docs don't reflect any useful policy any more hell, when I entered the MOOSE project, I was "OO" like everyone. water: change them! fare: you're the coordinator -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (A stranger is just an asshole you haven't met yet. -- Meet the Fascist Moderator at www.osopinion.com) am I? well, feed me something to coordinate. like, a patch. grrr this is not something i can just patch in this needs you to be involved does it? unless of course you plan on turning tunes into lispos in which case you can just shut down tunes.org and say the project is done ;) not exactly, although tunes will encompass a lispos great, tril's obviously afk sorry Trying to convert this document to html i find it pointless to argue with you, fare, when you're only justification for lisp is formalism s/you're/your water: what do you want Fare to do? no, it's also ease of bootstrap, an established tradition, etc, etc. sometimes i'd like him to leave the project water: "la critique est facile, l'art est difficile" i know water: how that, "leave"? If you want to be coordinator, just say so. water: I never asked for it. I happened to be it. but what am i supposed to do when i know that lisp will make tunes susceptible to all sorts of crappy design flaws? actually, that's my very problem. well i don't have time to coordinate what else do you propose? yet another language tradition? or ML? Mercury? Maude? and i already spend every waking moment working on my ideas slate you ass!!! is slate within any tradition, or is it Yet Another? none of the above water: can we make a list of lisp's crappy design flaws? 01:20pm sure it's not unified well, Rscheme is no it isn't if you meant it has one 'object' superclass? rscheme is definitely not unified Tril: CL: proprietary tradition; global object hierarchy; flat module space; no multiprogramming; and the fact that macros are a pure hack should indicate something CL macros are more than a pure hack, although they are not as clean as could. i was referring to cleanness the unpreciseness of macro-expansion time sometimes hurts, tho it reflects poor language design LISP was not designed. It was grown, and at one time, commiteed. Scheme is designed. But that's no better. so we're stuck again? even if we pick lisp, what's the point if we don't know what the hll is supposed to be? that's why i want tunes docs overhauled Fare: why cant u update ur opinions on the site? we know some of it: ease of reflection and metaprogramming, for which the LISP tradition seems fit. lol and also higher-order functions yeah that's way too abstract though http://tunes.org/~dem/tunes/ hcf: which opinions where? sigh hcf is way too terse and jumps back to earlier conversations :) Fare: hcf was referring to water's statement that "Even fare's opinions have changed over the last 2-3 years" wrt the tunes page try again hcf: because I feel like I should be doing coding, not webbing, unless there are specific bug reports that can be fixed w/o major website overhaul? Fare: coding what? yeah coding what? u'v admitted that ur published opinions r out of date, no? bandwidth between IRC and Fare's mind is lagged i've found it so very often 01:30pm I said "should". That's not indicative. hcf: some of them might. even more often, he isn't even around, should we be glad?? (I've been around less often lately) Fare: then dont just leave 'em to decay further no he's around nearly every day, spouts his usual opinionated garbage to newbies and then ignores the replies/qiuestions water: you're not being very positive lately are you? i'm fed up with Fare not since I've met him? Anyways. I'm sure Water is just upset that TUNES has a lack of progress! yes that's the major point i have ideas like slate and arrow that i'm pushing as well as i can manage and they're not getting any feedback etc that's obvious. well, you can't force feedback you'd have to start up a company and pay people for polls if you really want to. yes but i try to actively seek out people who would naturally be interested like jecel brb