IRC log started Thu Mar 9 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0309 -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-24.tscnet.net]) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: sleep) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn236.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn236.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- black [s981055@ic1052.uic.tula.ru] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff black: #TUNES (Ping timeout for black[ic1052.uic.tula.ru]) -:- NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:47am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from adams.openprojects.net [02:47am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net adams.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-33.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn236.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (afk) -:- ircusr [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- ircusr is now known as dalvarez wb dalvarez smkl: =) 08:00am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-50-42.s296.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[207-172-50-42.s296.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[130.238.23.252]) -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-48.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh4-port162.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error: 2.71828182846 (Excessive e)) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes Fare: do u use lynx? * smoke/#tunes likes the new colour support in lynx 11:20am ya i just figured out howto change it smoke: is there a version of lynx that supports https i don't know, i guess so hmm, i emailed someone that has a project on sourceforge with a few questions and they go and add me to their mailing without permission 11:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-132-62.s316.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes air: there is one - lynx 2.8 supports SSL. but for me it did not work due to an error in the install scripts 12:00pm ugh Lynx Version 2.8.1rel.2 (1998) it says it doesnt support https urls so i cant login to sourceforge hmm 6 hours late for work, again. better get going :) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (http://www.qzx.com/ :: work) 12:10pm air needs 2.8.2 (dl @ lynx.browser.org) 12:20pm -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh4-port162.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has left #tunes [] -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- yinzen [foobar@cx158568-a.okcnw1.ok.home.com] has joined #TUNES -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.136.228.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff yinzen: #TUNES (Ping timeout for yinzen[cx158568-a.okcnw1.ok.home.com]) -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (bed and warm and tired...) -:- yinzen [foobar@24.6.31.142] has joined #TUNES -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp99.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp276.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp276.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-212-163.s544.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- yinzen [foobar@24.6.31.142] has left #TUNES [] -:- tcn [r@cci-209150250134.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes * smoke/#tunes is back from being away: did you miss me? nope, I just got here :) what's up? 03:40pm -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2 cLIeNUX. Can you say that?) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[209-122-212-163.s544.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- yinzen [foobar@24.6.31.142] has joined #TUNES -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-198-228.s228.tnt11.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (ARGH HALF VIER AL) -:- SignOff yinzen: #TUNES (BitchX: the cootiless client) >>> AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-198-228.s228.tnt11.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] requested PING 952638513 from #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- water [water@tnt-9-7.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes ping pong 07:00pm is anyone else here? sorry i got pissed off yesterday, btw mea culpa -:- ult [ult@user-38lc67n.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes 07:10pm -:- Plundis_ [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [07:16pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] -:- Plundis_ is now known as Plundis -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Read error to ult[user-38lc67n.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-42.s296.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- ult [ult@user-38lc71j.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes * water/#tunes left clicks on AlonzoTG * AlonzoTG/#tunes just upgraded mouse driver / also installing FBSD on the machine downstairs... boy the channel has been dead this week 07:40pm hm amazon got a small face-lift while it was down 07:50pm Hey water yes? Just saying hi hm finally that book on substructural logics is on its way to me 08:00pm Cool yeah well i ordered it on january 7 Ouch From who? through amazon, don't recall the damned publisher There is yer problem... Amazon... :) no, the publisher bleh allegro cl is huge 08:10pm uh, cl is huge :) hey eih ready for bed yet? ;) hm it actually has a clos browser eih: seriously will you talk? rmm, i just woke up heh i'm not surprised hm allegro doesn't seem so bad for a common lisp, of course i wonder what's standing in the way of making a lisp-based squeak? you mean a leak? heh sure well, that was one of my plans i think the complete lack of a good native lisp gui is it and perhaps the juggernaut known as common lisp what is xemacs then? :) not the same at all 08:20pm but rmm, with slate, that kinda got side-tracked oh well lisp+macros can make most of slate well, the problem is then making a more sensible lisp to implement all of it, if you're willing to put up with a huge performance hit and lisp+macros isn't necessarily inefficient so long as your lisp compiler itself is efficient and the concepts aren't too complicated to express of course not, if the final language behaves like lisp :) but i doubt slate programming will make sense to a lisp compiler 08:30pm actually i can think of a big barrier to a lisp gui, complexity-wise naming rmmm, how so? well every lisp i know of has just one or two namespaces, which are always the only ones available making a lisp gui would be as cumbersome as it is in c or c++ in terms of identifier allocation well, you have packages at run-time? rmm, clarify the question please :) everything in lisp happens at run-time can you put the evaluator into the package namespace and leave it there without worrying about namespace clashes? or do you always have to use the packagename prefix? you can define the current package 08:40pm is it cumbersome, efficiency-wise? not sure it shouldn't be the trick is that in a self-hosted gui, compiling has to be really fast only if the user values interactivity :) for those used to stop-and-copy garbage collectors heh its not such a stretch ok i think it'd be easy to do it if you only abandoned the weight of cl without re-inventing any wheels unnecessarily, of course there also is of course the problem that the only functional-style gui's have been research experiments like BrIX :) brix is procedural well there you go :) 08:50pm you have considered the idea that slate objects are just certain kinds of functional expressions with oo primitives, right? in a manner of speaking well consider that the representation idea we came up with is just a functional expression with some oo-style functions defining object structure actually, i've thought of some better ways to go about 'add-slot' etc how so? well you can't build or modify objects without sending messages, right? correct 09:00pm i mean how do you propose to perform 'add-slot's and what not and the object tree in general is therefore a functional structure oh well, add-slot is a structural idea, fostering the idea of an object as a slot-vector add-slot is very cool i'm thinking of turning it into something that reflects semantics a bit better but...i fear it would be kinda slow... Would you just make a hash table or whatever of slots then? inline caching well anyway, i was thinking of the "slots as data-flow points" of our code model where all you're really doing is passing around expressions directly i was considering that there might be certain 'atomic' slots for the object that defines its basic features and others that basically perform services otoh, you could get the same thing by 'wrapping' the core object with another object that provided the 'services' there is also the ambiguity provided by the cloning function you might want every clone to always be the same object, and to forward all changes msg'd to the clone to the prototype actually, there are all sorts of variations on this theme you might want all changes to an object to actually modify some other object up the chain of delegation, and possibly cloning the delegation path for that special modification 09:10pm in the end, the simplest way to look at that kind of flexibility is functionally you could even do such a thing in the bmo direction comments so far? * eihrul/#tunes hmms. well, then cloning becomes a tricky operation because the clone doesn't necessarily have the same meta-object if you're using it as a reference btw, a lot of these ideas occur in traditional oo (as design patterns) right but you can include bmo preference in the clone code for the object at fine grain G'nite bye ult -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Snooze.) btw, did we ever figure out how to resolve the problem of the .. slot referring to an object's container? i forgot to document what we agreed on 09:20pm damn it, tell me when you're not listening or have to go away! rmm, i am geez it's like you're not alive sometimes as for .., i'm not quite sure if we decided on anything conclusive well i'm trying as much as possible to reduce the noise in the syntax for instance, self uses namespaces by giving access to the lobby everywhere and sending messages to the lobby to get at its namespaces recursively (see ProgRef) but giving universal access to the lobby seems just as noisy 09:30pm side note: mi reduces to applying an object-generating function sequence to two qualitatively different functional expressions rmm, elaborate? :) ok consider two unrelated prototypes one has a direct descendant created by applying function-style messages to it the other can get that behavior "mixed in" by applying much the same sequence of functions to itself another idea is that the intensional meaning of such a functional expression or part thereof consitutes a general notion of a class with clones being instances i also looked at cardelli's imperative object calculus again recently it reminded me that state can easily be reduced to accessor and mutator code itself i.e. accessor code consists of "return x" where x is the object itself, not a variable and the mutator is obvious... it just changes this reference in the accessor code 09:40pm ping pong hm quite a lag what do you think? it seems variables as such are redundant hello? are you okay? rmm, well that's a problem though :) you have a regression of sorts because "return x" must be represented with objects themselves and to change the value of x is to change the state of an object no! x is not a varialbe with a value i believe i stated that already i know but... i'm saying the you have to have a reference to what "x" represents and to change the meaning of "return x" from one x to another at some level requires changing the state of an object i'm not changing the meaning geez and the mutator is obvious... it just changes this reference in the accessor code of course i have to change state i'm saying we can do it without variables i'm saying you have a regression there though, none-the-less :) we already have one otherwise we wouldn't need ":" btw, you'd better get used to regression :) 09:50pm and stop complaining because it's only going to get worse well, regression is okay... so long as you have a top and i was not complaining i was merely making an observation and changing the state of another object to change the state of another object seems seedy :) not to me, it doesn't like i said, get used to it well, in what way does this enhance anything? it just convolutes no it doesn't then justify such this leads to arrow :) why is this expedient? i'm systematically going to destroy the coherent notion of absolute reality in slate which is very expedient otherwise you wind up with brittle code you'll have to have a standardized library in order for people to share ideas which is non-expedient i hope this doesn't bother you not really so long as it isn't impossible to optimize the stuff :) well it's obvious how to implement it 10:00pm btw, have you had any thoughts about shaping? not yet i've been doing a lot of sleeping lately i've noticed shaping works just like the functional stuff i mentioned about prototyping only in the containership direction * eihrul/#tunes slept 14 hours yesterday. * eihrul/#tunes doesn't think that is healthy for some reason. yeah you've got some problems but such is the moment sigh ? the "reviving tunes" posts rmm, those happen every half a year or so yes i know 10:10pm well anyway, fp shaping applies to our object representation idea so we get a certain amount of oo shaping for free :) the other part seems to consist solely of the containership relation i think -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp266.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes waves. * _ruiner_/#tunes waves back heh -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) he's probably already asleep ;) 10:20pm Heh later! -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) 10:30pm -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-22.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey dx hey it's been quiet this week except for me, i'm always obnoxious :) how're things going with you? 11:30pm -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp266.wi.centurytel.net]) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0310 IRC log ended Fri Mar 10 00:00:01 2000