IRC log started Sun Feb 20 00:00:02 2000
<water> why does rares even try any more?
<redronin> so you'll need _a_ intern representation of your objects like a unique-id or so
<lar1> water:  Why not?
<water> screw unique id's
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0220
<redronin> ...and then bind this to any symbol you want!
<water> screw symbols
<water> direct-manipulation
<redronin> symbols meant as abstraction upon interfacing the user with text/graphics...
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<water> well, for now, let's just not rely on a representation for the objects aside from implementational
<rares> how do I know if some fool isn't bombing me
<redronin> rares: watch yout logs
<water> of course object structure can always be determined from application of primitives to extract information
<water> but this information as a list of slots has nothing to do with message-passing syntax
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<redronin> how do you want to locate objects without something like a unique-id (as abstraction of a memory-adress)?
<water> iow the representation of an object in slate syntax would be the set of changes from root to the desired object
<water> red: i'm not discussing implementation per se
<water> every object exists within a namespace
<water> every object *is* a namespace
<water> the object representation in slate syntax could be condensed into a sequence of changes due to 'add-slot's with the final values of each slot
<water> which would be a sort of "flattened" representation
<water> condensing all delegated slots into one flat object
<water> eihrul: this make sense?
12:10am
<water> are you still there, dude?
<eihrul> rmm, i wasn't, but now i am
<water> thx for letting me know :/
<redronin> ok, enough so long.. i hope i've not disturbed you in your discussions
<water> np
<redronin> cya next
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<water> eihrul: so do you follow?
<eihrul> still reading
<eihrul> rmm, note quite...
<eihrul> 'object representation'...
<eihrul> could be clarified as to where this would occur :)
<water> "where"?
<eihrul> rmm, is (...) the object representation?
<water> well you have to have primitives that return implementation information
<water> no
<eihrul> or rather oriss
<water> the sequence of messages that produced the object is its representation
<eihrul> (object representation in slate syntax)
<eihrul> oh, ok
<eihrul> that makes sense
<eihrul> and in one sentence :)
<water> ok
<water> well from that representation, you can process it to produce a ui output
<water> of many types of forms
<water> and like i said there would at least be provided a "flattened" view of this sequence of messages
<water> another view would be parametrized by a particular parent in the delegation chain:
<eihrul> but then...
<eihrul> this also brings up the representation of an objects as other slate objects (i.e. a mirror) :)
<water> it would return all changing messages from that point down towardds the object
<eihrul> independent of syntax
<water> hm?
<eihrul> reflection
<water> what do you mean?
<eihrul> if i wanted to examine what slots an object had, etc
12:20am
<water> you could get that from the primitives that returned the constructing messages
<eihrul> which reflect on the object, basically :)
<water> right
<water> but they're not mirrors
<eihrul> well, doesn't that somewhat subsume the purpose of mirrors?
<water> sure i guess
<water> but it seems more versatile
<eihrul> now...
<eihrul> this begs the question...
<eihrul> <water> the sequence of messages that produced the object is its representation
<eihrul> "produced" or "could produce?" :)
<water> produced
<water> the "could produce" part would be the flattened form, for instance
<water> but "produced" directly relies on the immutability idea
<water> which has to be supported by the implementation
<eihrul> ahora, por ejemplo...
<water> although i suppose its possible to "flatten" an object's history once certain parts of it become uninteresting
<eihrul> (myObject (setVar : (/otherObject someVar)))
<water> third parentheses pair unnecessary
<eihrul> would that be the representation for myObject?
<water> no
<eihrul> or would some parts be evaluated?
<water> well it depends first of all on what this expression produces
<eihrul> (/otherObject someVar) => 1
<water> if myObject is mutable by this reference "myObject", then this represents the last step of the representation
<eihrul> it would almost need to be partially evaluated :)
<water> however, if myObject is *not* mutable by this reference, then this expression represents the last step of the representation of the (anonymous?) object returned by the expression
<eihrul> atleast for mutability's sake...
<water> it *is* about partial-eval
<water> you grok what i said there?
<eihrul> because (/otherObject someVar) may refer to 2, at the time of examination :)
<water> ok
12:30am
<water> obviously object-representation of this sort is a bit tricky
<water> with a lot of mutability lying about, anyway
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> well if the object itself is entirely mutable, no history will exist after the point it becomes so
<eihrul> mutability and lazy evaluation don't seem to like eachother :)
<water> or rather that latter part of its history will consist entirely in its current state
<water> i think they can get along
<eihrul> if an expression is lazily evaluated
<water> but it requires some care
<eihrul> and refers to some object that is mutable
<water> ah
<eihrul> does it mean the expression wants the state of the object when the expression was created
<eihrul> or when it is evaluated?
* water/#tunes foresees eihrul's point
<water> what if you *wanted* that to happen?
<water> well it dependds on the type of reference used by the computation
<eihrul> blade cuts both ways :)
<eihrul> if you want an expression evaluated immediately... you want that to happen
<eihrul> if you want the behavior of a block, you don't 
<water> it's all about the references
<water> which is the trickiest sub-system of slate, because it is so powerful
<water> and also because it requires the entire system to work like one object
<water> (i keep expecting a lurker to cry foul on that one :)
* eihrul/#tunes hmms.
<water> any lurkers out there find that hard to swallow??? :)
<eihrul> 12:37 AM
* eihrul/#tunes ponders a course of action.
<eihrul> any other important things to discuss?
<water> anything that will help you implement what we've discussed
12:40am
<water> oh gosh i just realized something potentially weird
<eihrul> just to clarify... mutability is a slot-wise attribute?
<water> sort of
<water> oh... doh!
<water> yes
<water> but the object itself as a stream must be managed carefully
<eihrul> ok, bring forth the freakish weird beast
<water> heh
<water> if you have a mutable object and something has a reference to it as immutable, and the object changes, first of all of course the immutably-referenced version stays the same...
<water> but if you change the reference type dynamically to mutable, then it *has* to branch from the stream
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> even if the object hasn't changed between reference creation and shift in mutability
<eihrul> that just crossed my mind, in another form
<water> hm however, i suppose we could allow such a reference to follow the object on the regular stream if no changes had happened
<water> yeah that makes some sense
<eihrul> though, that seems like very confusing behavior
<water> not locally confusing, though
<eihrul> because if changes had happened
<eihrul> then even when switched to immutable
<eihrul> -im
<eihrul> you would have the only reference to the new object
<eihrul> (and thus it could not be modified from external sources)
<water> perhaps the confusion would be clarified by having namespaces split to distinguish the cases
<eihrul> whereas in the other case, it would be
<water> hm
<eihrul> so it'd be less confusing if the first was always the case :)
<water> not exactly, because the mutable object could have been changed hundreds of times in the interval
<eihrul> it's just that the programmer/user has to anticipate whether changes had happened
<eihrul> to know if his object can be possibly modified by outside sources
<water> hm
<eihrul> in the copy-by-value view of immutability
<eihrul> this is intuitive :)
<water> i don't think i mind having that confusion you mentioned
<water> hm indeed
12:50am
<water> so that's are immutability policy then?
<water> s/are/our/
<eihrul> copy-by-value isn't performance effective for large objects :)
<water> definitely not
<water> but most large objects will likely be mutable anyway
<eihrul> well, i say i go think on it for the night :)
<water> (backed up by persistent store at a convenient point in the past)
<water> ok
<water> i'm working tomorrow
<eihrul> sunday!?
<water> but i'll be here on monday
<water> yep i have to watch over the reactor
<eihrul> though...
<eihrul> brings up one other question
<eihrul> on whether immutability effects not only the referenced object
<eihrul> but all other objects it references...
<eihrul> because if the object has local state, that depends on the local state of a referenced object
<eihrul> then you can have an inconsistency between the two
<water> hm
<water> i think we discussed this before
<future> shite, gotta go.
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<eihrul> i don't quite remember what we decided :)
<water> well changing the slots of an object requires sending the object a msg
<water> hm or perhaps not
<eihrul> well, stuff to think about during work :)
<eihrul> i can't have you being bored
<water> heh
<eihrul> g'night
<water> night
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<water> whew
<water> i hope we can get this sub-system to work
01:00am
<rares> I like the flattened representation
<rares> I was going to suggest that
<water> ok
<water> yeah othwerwise it would be unwieldly
<water> smalltalk has "changesets" which amount to unflattened representations of this sort
<rares> actually it's nice cuz it's streamable that way
<water> yeah
<rares> ytou could have two nodes taklk to each other about objects
<water> hm
<rares> :)
<water> interesting
<rares> slate is beowulf ready :)
<water> lol
<water> yes that's good
<water> we were already looking for a distributive computation basis
<rares> and it's so easily balanced on all objects
<water> and since we already took our objects as always threadable, this idea fits in nicely
<rares> er nodes
<rares> slick
<rares> good work
<water> well, we don't have an implementation yet
<water> so no congradulations just yet
01:10am
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<rares> we lost him again
<water> Dx?
<rares> yup
<lar1> He had to go to bed
<rares> oh
<rares> he didn't tell me
<lar1> He was up for 18 hrs
<rares> he just left
<rares> eeeeeeeeeeew
<lar1> I was talking with him
<rares> so was I
<rares> that's cool though... slatescript embedded in TCPIP
<water> heh
01:20am
<rares> I have a question
<water> you could do the same with jvm bytecodes or smalltalk bytecodes
<rares> wouldn't this double as a CORBA/XML killer?
<water> yeah if we get something working like macros
<water> the macros are the the important part
<rares> ummm dude you just entered into business relevance :)
<rares> $$$$$
<water> you think i don't know that?
<rares> :)
* lar1/#tunes perks ears
<water> i suppose it'd surprise you that i know how to make arrow market relevant
<rares> oh it wouldn't
<water> *really* market relevant
<rares> even i know how to do it
<hcf> where did Principia Cybernetica go?
<water> ok
<water> abi: pcp?
<abi> rumour has it pcp is Principia Cybernetica, a web-based public theory of cybernetics and systems theory or http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/
<hcf> url dont work
<water> holy cow!!!
* water/#tunes checks dmoz
<rares> be or de?
<water> be
<water> it's always been be
<rares> juss checkin
<rares> you could have mpiselled it
<water> yep site's down
<water> hopefully just maintenance
<water> damn what a nice site
<water> so what's that about arrow marketability ;)
<rares> high availability monitoring
<water> huh?
<rares> for networks
<water> why the hell would arrow have a lead there?
01:30am
<rares> i'm thinking self repairing networks unless i'm confusing arrow w/ something else
<water> yeah you are
<water> abi: arrow?
<abi> arrow is a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<hcf> abi: arrow =~ s/Arrow\/,/Arrow\/ /
<abi> That doesn't contain 'Arrow\', hcf
<water> i mean, you could use arrow for that, but it's not the Big Selling Point
<hcf> hmm
<lar1> later
<rares> cya
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<water> ?
<rares> well I'm going too
<water> k
<rares> tis 0435
01:40am
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<water> bleh... immutability by slot/reference isn't an easy concept
<water> i almost want to name the whole tree of persistent values yggdrasil, but beta's already used the name for a similar concept
<hcf> how about, willow?
<water> i think i'll stick with nameless actually
<water> metaphors seem to cheapen the concept
<water> of course the easy solution is to let slate's run-time get ridiculously memory-bloated
01:50am
<water> but that's not the point
<water> perhaps i could release the reference sub-system as is, but add in a decent tutorial explaining when and where immutability should be used and what the defaults do
<water> because there are definite uses for immutability, but they mostly have to do with the system's core code...
<water> or the core code of some important thing like project development (a la cvs)
<water> even so, the inconsistencies do need to be cared for
<water> hm
<water> "an object's state consists of its references' states, not the states of the contents of its references"?
<water> an interesting possibility with unknown consequences
<water> (heh. steve roach is clever. he can release all his music for free on his site, but fans still will buy the albums because sound quality in ambient music is crucial)
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02:00am
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<Fare> who's steve roach?
<Fare> is slate some kind of state without bar?
03:40am
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<Fluffie> hah
<Ghyll> :)
<Ghyll> I can run but I can't hide ? :)
<Fluffie> noe slikt ja
<Fluffie> ;)
<Fluffie> have you instructed your courier to bring the t-shirts?
<Ghyll> I have. He is en route to Bergen as we speak.
<Ghyll> If all goes well, they will be dropped off at your desk by tomorrow afternoon, or Tuesday afternoon, depending.
<Fluffie> great :) let's hope he doesn't run into rebels
<Ghyll> The Os rebels. Nasty buggers..
<Fluffie> I posted to NIPL about the pipes
<Fluffie> in case anyone there knows about hidden problems
09:00am
<Fluffie> did you know that 5714 cows in Norway are called Litago?
<Ghyll> how many are called 'dagros' ?
<Ghyll> did you look this up on ssb.no, by any chance ?
<Fluffie> http://www.nrf.no/kunavn.html
<Ghyll> wonder if there's anything written about slates runtime system..
<Fluffie> since the browser is somehow broke I must spend my time doing other stuff
<AlonzoTG> windows3.11runsfivetimesfasterona333/4mbthanwindows98onamachinethatistwiceasfastandhas16megs...
<Ghyll> runsisntreallythewordoneusestodescribewindows
09:10am
<Ghyll> unlessofcourseoneismovingquicklyawayfromthathideoussonofabotch
<Fluffie> 333/4mb???
<Fluffie> what kind of evil is that?
<Ghyll> Fluffie : hopefull videocard
<Ghyll> Fluffie : full/fully
<Fluffie> I have eight times that mem amount on my videocard alone
<Fluffie> win* is dead anyway
<Ghyll> you memory monger!
<Fluffie> nutscrape used 324M alone the other day
* Ghyll/#tunes likes ezmlm very much.
<Fluffie> what is it?
<Ghyll> easy mailing list manager. 
<Fluffie> for a client of mailing-lists or a mailing list server?
09:20am
<Ghyll> server. 
<Fluffie> I still use sortmail to put things in the right place and xbuffy to keep track of boxes
<Ghyll> it has these nice index and digest features.
<Ghyll> I let procmail do that gruntwork.
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<Fluffie> nntp.uib.no is down :(
09:30am
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<Fluffie> borland c++ free as in free beer
<Fluffie> which brings around the next question
<Fluffie> where is the free beer everyone is talking about???
09:40am
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<Ghyll> quaffed already
<Fluffie> :(
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09:50am
<Fluffie> think I'll head home.. just wasting time here anyway
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10:00am
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<Downix> hey eihrul
<eihrul> lo
<Downix> how are things going?
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10:30am
<Downix> hey Kauf
<Kaufmann> hey Downes
<Kaufmann> what's up?
<Downix> nothing much, how's the job going?
<AlonzoTG> om
<Kaufmann> going well. I've also cut a deal with the Brazilian Committee for Production of Free and Alternative Software; I'll be teaching Perl classes.
* eihrul/#tunes cackles.
<eihrul> Kauf: how's yer language going?
<Kaufmann> eihrul, I'm undertaking a brief hiatus.
<eihrul> why?
<Kaufmann> school, work, teaching - too much stuff to do, too little time
<Kaufmann> not to mention sitting around talking to you guys on IRC
<Ghyll>  /kick kaufmann Only happy to help :)
10:40am
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> thanks
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10:50am
* Fufie/#tunes is tired
<eihrul> why for?
11:00am
<Fufie> long slippery walk on ice uphill to get home from the office
<Fufie> 25-30 min walk
* Fufie/#tunes hates snow and ice.. give me rain any day
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* Ghyll/#tunes eats some supper
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11:10am
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<rares> hey
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11:30am
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* Fufie/#tunes wants some free beer
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<rares> knock knock
<lar1> Whos there?
<rares> nada
<rares> OO__OO__
<lar1> __OO__OO
04:20pm
<rares> http://www.cyc.com/halslegacy.html
<rares> this is hilarious
<lar1> Ummm
<lar1> Yeeeah
<rares> the part about committing suicide is funny as hell
<rares> computer committing suicide that is
04:30pm
<Fufie> umm.. why?
<Fufie> it's a sad thing
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<rares> committing suicide in that situation means that in order to avoid making mistakes the program stopped looking for discoveries
<rares> I find that very amusing
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04:40pm
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<rares> heh
<rares> cyc is going nowhere
<rares> abi, rares said cyc is going nowhere
05:10pm
<rares> abi, rares?
<abi> i don't know, rares
<rares> abi, cyc?
<abi> cyc is at http://www.cyc.com
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<hcf> abi: cyc is also going nowhere (says rares)
<abi> okay, hcf.
05:20pm
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<future> no one here
06:40pm
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<hcf> hoy rares
<rares> hoy
<rares> anyway I think water's a little too optimistic about cyc
07:30pm
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<hcf> hohum
08:30pm
<AlonzoTG> omlie omlie omma
<AlonzoTG> ToPiQuE?
<AlonzoTG> ENG 111 sucks.
<AlonzoTG> and ENG 112
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp05.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> hoy eihrul
<eihrul> lo
08:50pm
-:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from devlin.openprojects.net [09:07pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net devlin.openprojects.net
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-:- SignOff future: #TUNES (Read error to future[209-6-184-165.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com]: EOF from client)
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving)
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-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1012.javanet.com])
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0221
IRC log ended Mon Feb 21 00:00:02 2000