IRC log started Sat Feb 12 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0212
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<Fare> Gakuk
06:10am
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<ult> anyone know eihrul's home phone #?
07:10am
<Fare> eihrul does
<Fufie> fare: lots of cvs traffic today :)
07:20am
<ult> Fare; Funny ;)
<ult> He's gonna be upset tho.
<ult> gah
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<Fare> Fufmann: is there?
<Fare> Fufmann: I'm just trying to finish the WhyNewOS article
<Fare> at least until the point that I expose the principal results, and clean up the Draft.
<Fufie> looking forward to it :)
<Fare> btw, I'm looking for nice words to put on top of each chapter, as I converte the thingie to LaTeX
<Fare> I printed the whole affair. I'm not quite satisfied with the author
<Fare> his work is much too messy
<Fare> :( :( :(
07:30am
<Fufie> you mean quotes?
<Fufie> I think I have some articles where I use quotes as "subtitles"
<Fufie> what kind of quotes do you need?
07:40am
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<ult> oh oh oh
<ult> how unlucky
08:10am
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<Kaufmann> Heh... this will make Brian happy
<ult> sux2beihrul
<Kaufmann> the Undersecretary of the US Navy is threatening to stop using Microsoft if they don't improve the quality of their software
<Kaufmann> ...on related news, according to a Microsoft exec, Win2K has over 65000 bugs
<ult> heh
<ult> makes ya feel all warm and fuzzy inside, don't it?
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08:20am
* smoke/#tunes has only found 23483 bugs in linux yet
<ult> well
<ult> in order to truly appreciate the bugginess of linux as compared to windows you must look at linux+a distro
<ult> eg: Debian
08:40am
<smoke> heh :)
08:50am
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<ult> eihrul
<ult> dude
<ult> i -bought- you a crystal greataxe this morning
<ult> but i had to quit
<ult> geez
<eihrul> doh
09:00am
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<smoke> wow texmacs looks nice
<smoke> anyone seen/tested it ?
<Fare> what's it?
<smoke> a lisp extendable WYSIWYG editor, inspired by both TeX and Emacs
<smoke> http://www.math.u-psud.fr/~anh/TeXmacs/
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01:50pm
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<hcf> abi: TeXmacs is a lisp extendable WYSIWYG editor, inspired by both TeX and Emacs at http://www.math.u-psud.fr/~anh/TeXmacs/TeXmacs.html
03:20pm
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<lar1> Hey
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<smkl> what does chello mean?
03:50pm
* lurkk/#tunes lurks; playing a 'big violine' between my legs ;)
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<present> hellol
06:10pm
<mibout> hil
<present> whats up
<mibout> not much, i am trying to bring an ai bot online
<present> what does the bot do?
<mibout> collects sentences and than aswers on question based on the info obtained
<mibout> s/than/then/
<mibout> hold on
<present> what kind of methods does it employ?
<mibout> basically the question is translated into a question mask
<present> question mask?
<mibout> answer mask sorry
<mibout> like
<mibout> what is foo?
<mibout> foo is .*
<present> how do u do this?
<mibout> in perl
<present> does it answer quesions besides 'what is' ?
<mibout> required some hours of coding, tho, as i am not fluent at it
<mibout> hehe
<mibout> hope so present
06:20pm
<present> like, who ate my cow ?!
<mibout> lemme try
<mibout> no cant still do that question
<mibout> lemme code lil more now =)
<present> or, why is my hand all yellow and swollen ?!@#
<mibout>  my is hand yellow and swollen (because|since|so that) (.*)
<present> tell me that!
<present> no seriously
<present> gotta problem w/the hand here 
<mibout> if you hold on ill try to put it in irc
<present> ;P
<mibout> heh
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<truthbot> Hi
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<present> uhoh
<mibout> heh, wait
<present> is this an infobot ?
<mibout> no, i wrote it from stratch
<mibout> or scratch
<present> if you could split statements up into a) questions b) facts  you could then find the closest match in set b to any item in set a
<present> just by surface-level heuristics
<mibout> just hehe
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<present> i mean you wouldnt have to go trying to parse sentence diagrams an stuff
<present> like you could find similar words in a,b  or even look for synonyms ...
<present> and come up with 'the best match'
<mibin> im lazy hehe
<present> it would be hard if you had lots of facts stored up, like a search engine
<mibin> no, as long as you can do a keyword search
<mibin> and the database is indexed
<present> true
06:30pm
<present> however, the whole thing breaks down when you ask questions that are a 'moving target'
<present> as in, 'whats my name ?'
<mibin> it can answer that one =)
<present> nice 
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<present> search engines dont usually index by phrase tho
<present> meaning, a keyword or set maps to a page.. not a particular sentence on the page
<mibin> k, lets start debugging
<AlonzoTG> om
<present> where iz my cow?!
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<present> ult, moo
<ult> moo!
<mibin> hehe
<mibin> hold on !
<present> does ml support statements w/side-effects?
<mibin> no
<mibin> not yet
<present> isn't it kind of hard to write a real app that doesn't maintain any state?
<mibin> why do you think it doesnt?
<mibin> the sentences where are the truths are stored in a file
<present> by side-effects i meant storing state
<mibin> ahhh
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06:40pm
* AlonzoTG/#tunes runs truthbot over with a 4x4
<present> truthbot, who's the man?
<mibin> hmm
<mibin> present: it has no truth stored so far
<mibin> and still needs debugging
<present> truthbot, the man is you da man
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<mibin> hope not to annoy anyone =)
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<mibin> anybody interested join #truthbot
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<mibin> truthbot: you are annoying
<truthbot> truth stored: I am annoying
<mibin> truthbot: how are you?
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06:50pm
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<mibin> truthbot: how are you?
<mibin> truthbot: you are ok
<truthbot> truth stored: I am ok
<mibin> truthbot: how are you?
-:- present is now known as past
<mibin> hehe
<truthbot> truth stored: , mibin laugh,
<mibin> ops
<truthbot> truth stored: ops
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<mibin> woohoo it works now
<truthbot> truth stored: woohoo it works now
07:00pm
<mibin> truthbot: how are you?
<mibin> truthbot: you are ok
<truthbot> truth stored: I am ok
<mibin> truthbot: how are you?
<truthbot> I am ok
<mibin> truthbot: my name is Michele
<truthbot> truth stored: your name is Michele
<mibin> truthbot: what is my name?
<abi> mibin, your name is, like, Michele
<truthbot> your name is Michele
<truthbot> truth stored: mibin, my name is, like, Michele
<mibin> truthbot: a is b
<truthbot> truth stored: a is b
<mibin> truthbot: a?
<abi> well, a is one point on the line, b is the other
<truthbot> truth stored: well, a is one point on the line, b is the other
<mibin> truthbot: what is a?
<abi> i heard a was one point on the line, b is the other
<truthbot> a is b
<truthbot> a is one point on the line
<truthbot> truth stored: abi heard a was one point on the line, b is the other
<mibin> truthbot: what is b?
<truthbot> b is a
<truthbot> b is the other
<truthbot> b is the other
<mibin> i hate truthbot
<truthbot> truth stored: mibin hate i
<mibin> truthbot: who do i hate?
<truthbot> you hate i
<mibin> truthbot: i hate you because you are lame
<truthbot> truth stored: you hate I __because I__ is lame
<mibin> bug here
<truthbot> truth stored: bug here
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<mibin> truthbot: i hate you because you are lame
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<mibin> truthbot: i hate you because you are lame
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07:10pm
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<mibin> truthbot: you are not a human
<mibin> are you a human?
<truthbot> I am not a human
<present> truthbot, am i a human?
<mibin> present is a human
<mibin> now he knows =)
<mibin> truthbot, is present a human?
<truthbot> present is a human
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<mibin> abi =p
<present> haha
<present> bot loop
<eihrul> truthbot: what is your name?
<eihrul> truthbot: what is your quest?
<mibin> eihrul: you have to teach it first
<eihrul> truthbot: what is your favorite color?
<present> hahaha
<present> blue
<mibin> truthbot: your favorite color is green
<eihrul> truthbot: what is the average air speed of the swallow?
<present> no yellow)*!@#
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<mibin> truthbot: what is your favorite color?
<truthbot> my favorite color is green
<eihrul> truthbot: african or european?
07:20pm
<mibin> eihrul: or isnt implemented =)
<mibin> 'or'
<eihrul> truthbot: your quest is to find the holy grail
<eihrul> truthbot: what is your quest?
<truthbot> my quest is to find the holy grail
<mibin> truthbot, i am 19 years old
<mibin> truthbot, how old am i?
<truthbot> you are 19 years old
<mibin> truthbot: you are 0 years old
<mibin> how old are you?
<truthbot> I am 0 years old
<present> truthbot, who created you?
<ult> truthbot, ult created you
<ult> truthbot, ult is god
<ult> truthbot, who is god?
<truthbot> god is you
<present> !!)*!
<present> truthbot, who's the man?
<ult> truthbot, the meaning of life is to worship ult
<mibin> truthbot: who is ult?
<truthbot> ult is god
<ult> truthbot, ult is the man
<ult> truthbot, the man is ult
<mibin> truthbot: who is ult?
<abi> somebody said ult was god
<truthbot> ult is god
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<truthbot> ult is the man
<truthbot> ult is the man
<present> truthbot, who is the man??!@#
<mibin> !@# is confusing truthbot
<eihrul> truthbot: what is foo?
<abi> foo is .*
<truthbot> foo is bar
<mibin> what is foo?
<abi> foo is .*
<truthbot> foo is bar
<truthbot> foo is .*
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<mibin> what is bar?
<truthbot> bar is foo
<ult> truthbot, what is god?
<truthbot> god is you
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
* ult/#TUnes nods
<ult> truthbot, what is you?
<truthbot> I am not a human
<truthbot> I am 0 years old
<ult> truthbot is a human
<ult> truthbot, what is you?
<truthbot> I am not a human
<truthbot> I am 0 years old
<truthbot> i am a human
<ult> truthbot, what are you?
<truthbot> I am not a human
<truthbot> I am 0 years old
<truthbot> i am a human
* ult/#TUnes cackles
<mibin> hehe
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<mibin> lets try something more complex
<mibin> i wanna get a beer
<mibin> truthbot: what do i wanna get?
<truthbot> you want to get a beer
<ult> truthbot, what do i wanna get?
<mibin> ult, teach it first
* ult/#TUnes ponders
<present> i wanna get laid
<ult> so it understand that i and you and such are pronouns?
<ult> truthbot, we are bots
<ult> truthbot, what am I?
<truthbot> you are god
<present> truthbot, i want to want?
<truthbot> you are the man
<truthbot> you are the man
<ult> truthbot, what are we?
<truthbot> we are bots
<present> haha
<ult> truthbot, what are you?
<truthbot> I am not a human
<truthbot> I am 0 years old
<truthbot> i am a human
<ult> that ought to have assigned the property to both me and truthbot
<mibin> no, we has also another meaning
<mibin> 'we'
<present> we could mean anything
<mibin> it my mean me and you or me and another person
<present> at least it should apply to the speaker
<mibin> yep
<mibin> ill fix it
-:- SignOff truthbot: #TUNES (Read error to truthbot[an1-451.tiscalinet.it]: EOF from client)
07:30pm
<pyro> is this thing on?
<present> check 1 check 1
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<present> sibilence
<present> truthbot, what time is it?
<pyro> truthbot, who am i?
<pyro> truthbot: are you on?
<mibin> truthbot: you are on
<pyro> truthbot: are you on?
<truthbot> I am on
<pyro> truthbot: parle italiano?
<mibin> heh no
<pyro> me neither :)
<ult> truthbot< 1 + 1
<ult> truthbot, 1 + 1
<mibin> ult, it isnt an infobot =p
<ult> truthbot, bob is todd
<ult> truthbot, todd is ben
<ult> truthbot, what is bob?
<truthbot> bob is todd
<ult> hmm
<ult> he ought to make conjectures
<mibin> yep
<pyro> what is ben?
<truthbot> ben is todd
<pyro> what is todd?
<truthbot> todd is bob
<truthbot> todd is ben
<pyro> ahhh
<mibin> hehe
<mibin> i should make a 'forget' command
<ult> truthbot, ben is
<ult> truthbot, what is bem
<ult> truthbot, what is ben
<pyro> heh.. it could spew out pages and pages of crap
<ult> truthbot, what is todd
* ult/#TUnes hmms
<mibin> ult: the question mark?
<mibin> what is ben?
<abi> i guess ben is todd
<truthbot> ben is todd
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<truthbot> ben is what
<mibin> lol
<pyro> haha
<pyro> truthbot?
<abi> it has been said that truthbot is ok
<truthbot> i
<truthbot> i
<truthbot> i
<truthbot> i
<truthbot> i
<truthbot> i
<truthbot> i
<pyro> abi?
<ult> uhhh
<mibin> how are you?
<truthbot> I am not a human
<truthbot> I am 0 years old
<truthbot> i am a human
<truthbot> I am on
<pyro> i'm trying to get them into a race condition?
<ult> truthbot, what is ben?
<truthbot> ben is todd
<truthbot> ben is what
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<ult> truthbot, what is what?
<truthbot> what is bem
<truthbot> what is ben
<truthbot> what is todd
<ult> truthbot, foo bar what is what?
<mibin> truthbot: cats are good
<ult> abi, ben is what is ben
<abi> wish i knew, ult
<ult> abi, ben is "what is ben"
<abi> ...but ben is todd...
<ult> abi, what is ben
<abi> somebody said ben was todd
<ult> abi, forget ben
<abi> ult: I forgot ben
<ult> abi, ben is what is ben
<abi> i haven't a clue, ult
<ult> abi, ben is "what is ben"
<ult> abi, what is ben
<abi> well, ben is "what is ben"
<mibin> truthbot: we are the cartoon heroes
<ult> fisudhfusdhf suidfhisuhfsduif truthbot, what is ben? foo foo
<mibin> who am i?
<abi> you are always serious =)
<truthbot> mibin is happy,
<truthbot> mibin is happy,
<truthbot> mibin is 19 years old
<truthbot> mibin is the cartoon heroes
<eihrul> abi: ben is <reply> what is ben?
<abi> eihrul: no idea
<eihrul> grrr
<present> abi, cow is truthbot what are you?
<abi> present: bugger all, i dunno
<present> abi, cow is truthbot what are you
<abi> present: bugger all, i dunno
<ult> abi's output isn't coherent enough to trigger truthbot
<pyro> abi: ben is <reply> what is ben\?
<abi> pyro: i haven't a clue
<present> abi, cow is "truthbot what are you"
<abi> present: bugger all, i dunno
<present> !!
<present> abi, cow is "truthbot what am i"
<abi> present: wish i knew
<pyro> ben is what is ben?
<truthbot> ben is what is ben
<truthbot> ben is what is ben
<pyro> abi, ben?
<abi> ben is ben
07:40pm
<pyro> truthbot, what is bugger all?
* ult/#TUnes ponders circular conjectures
<eihrul> abi: what is ben?
<abi> what is ben
<eihrul> truthbot, what is foo?
<truthbot> foo is bar
<truthbot> foo is .*
<truthbot> foo is .*
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<eihrul> truthbot, what is foo
<pyro> abi, what is foo?
<abi> i think foo is .*
<ult> foobar abi, what is ben?
<ult> abi: what is ben?
<abi> truthbot, what is ben
<ult> abi: what is ben?
<pyro> haha
<ult> abi: what is ben?
<abi> truthbot, what is ben
<ult> truthbot, ben is what is ben?
<mibin> abi is different from truthbot
<truthbot> ben is what is ben
<truthbot> ben is what is ben
<ult> abi, what is ben
<abi> truthbot, what is ben
<ult> truthbot, whatis ben
<mibin> is truthbot different from abi?
<pyro> truthbot: baz is abi
<truthbot> i am different from abi
<ult> truthbot, what is ben
<ult> truthbot, what is ben?
<truthbot> ben is todd
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is what is ben
<truthbot> ben is "what is ben"
<truthbot> ben is what
<pyro> what is baz?
<abi> rumour has it baz is abi
<truthbot> ben is abi, what
<truthbot> ben is abi
<truthbot> ben is what is ben
<truthbot> ben is "what is ben"
<present> hehe
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is abi, what
<pyro> haha
<truthbot> ben is abi
<truthbot> ben is "what is ben"
<truthbot> ben is ben
<ult> abi, foo2 is what is bar?
<abi> wish i knew, ult
<truthbot> ben is ben
<mibin> lol
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is abi, what
<truthbot> ben is abi
<truthbot> ben is what
<truthbot> ben is what
<ult> hmm
<truthbot> baz is abi
<abi> i already had it that way, truthbot.
<pyro> truthbot: are you done yet?
<ult> truthbot, what is abi?
<truthbot> abi is different from i
<truthbot> abi is baz
<truthbot> abi is rumour has it baz
* eihrul/#tunes declares the (signal / noise) ratio to be abnormally low today.
<mibin> truthbot: you are not done
<ult> eihrul: True.
<ult> This really ought to be taken to a different channel.
<pyro> haha
<mibin> #truthbot
<present> truthcow
<mibin> lol
07:50pm
<present> what's new in tunes/slate world?
<present> if anyone here is affiliated w/the project
<eihrul> rmm, new relative to what old...
<present> oh i dunno
<present> i dont really know much about the projects
<present> but they look interesting
<present> has TUNES achieved global domination yet !@?>
08:00pm
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us118.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff truthbot: #TUNES (Read error to truthbot[an1-451.tiscalinet.it]: EOF from client)
-:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason)
-:- truthbot [mibin@an1-451.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff truthbot: #TUNES (Read error to truthbot[an1-451.tiscalinet.it]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- truthbot [mibin@an1-451.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes
<present> hello truthbot 
<present> truthbot, what do i wanna get?
* present/#tunes kicks truthbot
-:- SignOff truthbot: #TUNES (Read error to truthbot[an1-451.tiscalinet.it]: EOF from client)
08:20pm
<hcf> mibin: here?
<mibin> yep
<mibin> ahh, that was cause i have reset its memory
<hcf> i'd rather the log not be filled w/ bot debuging
<mibin> i told there was #truthbot for that too
<mibin> sorry, i wount put it here again
<mibin> wont
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<present> when will trunes run on the palm pilot?
<eihrul> shortly after it runs on anything...
<eihrul> in theory
-:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port59.snet.net] has joined #tunes
<rares> abi: seen Downix
<abi> Downix was last seen on IRC 4 days, 21 hours, 12 minutes and 7 seconds ago, saying: hehe [Mon Feb  7 23:11:48 2000]
<present> when will that be?  ;P
<hcf> mibin: if/when its better than abi, then she can be replaced, just until then, dont have e
<hcf> 'em on the same channel
<rares> ab: you've been a bad girl
<hcf> rares: how so?
<rares> why else is she being replaced
<eihrul> present: well, tunes project is a few years old
<eihrul> present: tunes related projects spring up and die at any given time, but i doubt there'll be a genuine tunes system...
<hcf> rares: obsolescence
<present> what are the most active tunes-y endeavors at this moment?
<rares> tunes
<eihrul> well, there's lots of various tunes unrelated projects
<eihrul> off the Review pages
<eihrul> that in some way may encompass aspects of tunes
<ult> thing about tunes is it's kinda non-existant
<ult> the only really 'tunes-related' project is slate
<eihrul> there's slate, kaufmann's working on something, fufie is working on something, iepos probably is as well...
<present> are there any working versions of slate?
<present> or is it early in development
<hcf> tcn, jdl, core
<eihrul> hcf: i don't know if core's project is specifically tunes...
<eihrul> though it does encompass some aspects of tunes, not quite all of them :)
<hcf> eihrul: then nothing is specifically tunes
<eihrul> still a nice concept anyway
<present> what is core's project
<eihrul> a component based operating system
<hcf> abi: clementine?
<abi> hmmm... clementine is a modular OS being written by core (mailto:core@tunes.org)
08:30pm
<present> interesting
<eihrul> hcf: doesn't mean i'm any less interested in it though :)
<hcf> abi: tell present about xcom
<hcf> abi: xcom is also by core
<abi> okay, hcf.
<present> corba is too complicated and so is com
<present> im glad someone's trying to simplify component dev
<eihrul> well, what's specifically nice about clementine
<eihrul> is it encompasses the OS itself
<eihrul> unlike com/corba which are just hacks for applications
<present> how do you mean?
<eihrul> well, the OS itself is just a collection of xcom's
<present> ahh
<eihrul> the OS facilities are just components that can be replaced, removed, added, etc
<eihrul> now as to when the hell he's going to get the chance to release it is the question...
<rares> spam him
<eihrul> uh, no
<present> it would be cool if there were a way to churn thru every library (perl modules, c lib, com objects) and just spit out a unified interface object for each
<rares> it's possdible just causes headaches
<present> id imagine..
<rares> i should know I have enough sleep lessd nights
<present> heh  uve tried to do this?
<rares> I thinkl about it all the time
<rares> it's my biggest fascination
<present> u want to componentize the universe?
<rares> and i get closer and come up with smaller objects
08:40pm
<rares> whoi wouldn't?
<present> hehe yes!
<present> the problem is, components arent much use outside of a logical, unified 'framework'
<rares> I reckon I'm a devil that makes Gates look Mother teresa :)
<present> thats pretty evil
<rares> well shit the framework can be a component too
<rares> you just need very basic components so that all changes in the framework are atomic
<rares> that's where I prefer files to btrees
<ult> hmm
<ult> data structures suck though
<ult> we need a good generic data structure
<ult> thatis -fast-
<rares> course they do
<present> files suck, everything should be a db :P
<rares> that's what we're for
<ult> but dbs aren't extensible
<rares> thank you ult
<present> in what sense?
<ult> look at SQL for example...you can't have arbitrary fields...
<ult> only fields set at table creation
<present> right
<ult> that sucks.
<present> beos has attributes which you can create dynamically and apply to files
<present> the fs acts a sort-of db, you can make queries based on your dynamic attributes
-:- rares has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES (Church of Don Quixote and Sancho Panza), Free Reflective Computing System @ http://www.tunes.org || slate @ http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
-:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[an1-451.tiscalinet.it])
* present/#tunes udders a prolonged 'moooo'
<rares> udders hehe
<present> programming should be easier
<present> im sick of if statements
<rares> no not easier
<rares> less tedious
<present> everything should just fall into place based on the dynamic state of the app. instead of hardwiring conditionals
<present> that too
<rares> i think relationships like if should come out of the model
<rares> data structures help in that way
<rares> but they suck too
<present> hey virtual functions got rid of alot of ifs i believe
<present> and switches
<rares> yeah but they confused the fuck out of many would be coders
<present> true
<rares> who can't think in terms of box in a box
08:50pm
<present> im a pathological user of virtuals. my goal is to reduce the program down to one statement do()
<present> while should be abolished too, seeing as how that can be accomplished by set-wise operations
<rares> box in a box: a 2 year old can understand it a 12 year old can talk about it a 22 year old can research it and a 32 year can blame AIDS, crime, violence, and the break-up of the world family on it
<present> H$haHAh
<present> hrmm
<present> will slate abolish control flow statements, thus reducing the most error-prone part of programming?
<rares> dunno bout that
<rares> but I can think of ways to that
<present> oh?
09:00pm
* present/#tunes reads up on the Lucid programming lang
<rares> what you do is: Design sources and sinks and some barriers let the really dirty conditionals work themselves out
<present> how do they just work themselves out 
<present> are you employing the forces of magik?!
<rares> course if you can show me a conditionless CPU then well...
<rares> no
<rares> no magick here
<rares> simple rules of Physics
<present> you need elements which 'seize' upon a condition in the *state* of a program, and act out single-mindedly to produce a result
<rares> you don't see light beams asking fo permission to go whethey wanna go
<rares> you just put traps in their way
<present> yes
<rares> it's called emergence, the science of convenient side effects requires wisdom not theory ore knowledge
<present> indeed
<present> i think ur on to something here
<rares> the Amiga was built around those principles which is why IT STILL kicks serious ASS
<present> you could say that an algorithm which seems to have 'branches' can be expressed in some 'simpler' reduced way which HAS no branches, but the result emerges as something that appears to
<rares> dude I was on to this when I was 8 years old most kids have no problem understanding until they hirt school or vice versa
<present> (as in the famous example of the boids bird-flock simulation program)
<rares> exactly
* eihrul/#tunes thinks rares could benefit from the use of periods.
<present> when i was 8.. i dont remember what the hell i was thinking
<present> probably something along the lines of 'give me candy'
<rares> LOL eih
<rares> I was born in a communist country you either learned early or you were one of them
<present> russia?
<rares> romania
<present> when did u leave
<rares> 85 8 going on 9
09:10pm
<present> ahh so you prolly have an accent
<rares> nope
<present> wow
<present> well i guess thats still kinda young
<rares> I learned the English language from a TRS-80 progging bool
<present> haha
<rares> I even have geekcantspeklitis
<rares> I'm totally assimilated
<present> u are one with borg!@#
<rares> umm adjusted even
<present> so you mentally translate complex conversational idioms into like BASIC code in your head?
<rares> no that's the problem
<rares> that's why I get headaches
<present> take some aspirin
<rares> BASIC can't parse box in a box nor emergence
<present> sure it can. it's a fully turing-capable !@
<rares> not from the given tokens and keywords
<present> so if the emergent flock-flying behavior can be modelled as 'branchless' singular tasks acting in parallel...  why can't that be true of *any* alogirhtm?
<rares> or at least not in a way that the program doesn't look jarring
<present> that way we could get rid of conditional statements
<present> maybe you can reduce any algorithm in a cellular-automaton with unique rules
<present> hence, no if this, do that, 
<present> just pure parallel computation
<present> THINK OF IT
<present> bitz swarming in unison to the universal harmonies!@
<rares> it can the only true rules in the boids algorithm are the limits of the space you're weorking in the speed of the boids (maximized) and the fact that boids take up and can but should lose space)
<present> *ahem*
<present> rares: ?
<present> the system has constraints yes..
<present> in Conway's life, you can specify 'algorithms' just by tweaking the initial state
<rares> the fact that two boids cannot collide in the experiment and the fact they must fly as fast as possible give us the V it's like the solution to the N Queens problem but in terms of Rooks
<present> hrmm
<rares> think freedom of movement at all times
<present> isn't one of the rules 'remain as close to the avg. position of the group
09:20pm
<rares> the bounds of the expermint box and the maximized speed conspire to create the third rule extreme proximity
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<rares> so the third rule is a second order rule
<present> i c
<rares> like second order emergence
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us118.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<rares> oh shit! I said expermint... I had a teacher who used to say that!
<present> so why can't programs just emerge :P
<rares> see now that is called fascism
<present> fascism?
<present> 'emergent programming'
<rares> on the surface
<rares> when you want it all to happen without any effort
<present> yes!
<present> well no
<rares> it should happen intelligently not easily
<rares> gfascism is when you want it all just because
<present> i have no problem expending effort/energy. but the solution should be THE solution. not riddled with holes and unprovable
<rares> you said why can't programs just emerge
<rares> that'swhere I tend to draw the line
<present> well what if we shifted the energy from programming in the 'proximate sphere' and focused on the 'intrinsic' features
<present> because the richness of the proximate world is much harder to encode than the intrinsics perhaps
<present> so instead of encoding the V formation, you figure out the 2 intrinsic rules
<present> (basically an act of *compression*)
<present> am i making any sense or am i just a raving madman!@#
<rares> it's a stalemate and a battle of trade offs and som,etimes it's just egos and bragging but it's very cool when it's done right
<rares> present you sound like me some months ago relax
<present> hehe
<present> so what conclusion did u come to?
<rares> know yourself
<rares> know what you want
<rares> kick ass
<present> i want a cookie
<rares> LOL
<present> what were u saying is cool when done right?
<rares> Amiga is precisely that type of design
<present> how do you figure
<present> (i havent used them much)
<rares> when you draw to the screen you follow the video gun it's briliant
<present> video gun?
<rares> yeah you set a delay rather than working out a position in memory
<present> ohoh
<present> what is a delay?
<rares> position 3 to 5 cycles per pixel
<rares> delay is the video scan rate
<rares> or part of it
09:30pm
<rares> delay takes maybe 1.5 cycles on averahge
<present> i c
<rares> actually could be 10 cycles per pixel
<rares> consider this
<rares> load video page base pointer
<rares> load x
<rares> load y
<rares> load video horizontal length
<rares> multiply y x vhlen + x + base pointer
<rares> load color
<rares> load actual colr from palette
<rares> send color to pixel address
<rares> all that crap per pixel on normal PC's
<present> sounds reasonable
<rares> 10 x 1600 x 1200 x 60 hz ?
<rares> a video card needs that speed to produce 60 fps 2-D
<present> hrm
<rares> nasty
<rares> and guess what it's worse
<present> what?
<rares> 24 bit color Digital to analog conversion for SVGA monitops takes 24 cycles per pixel
<rares> so 34 x 1600 x 1200 x 60hz
<rares> I don't think the gov't allows that :)
<present> thats why we have VooDoo
<rares> too high tech
<rares> VooDoo does not do 1600x12000 x 60fps
<rares> but Amiga can pull it off
<present> wow
<rares> it needs some work but only minor changes
<rares> most amigas stop at 1024 x 1024
<present> amiga was thwarted by a conspiracy by all the other comp co's (much like the car powered only by water which GM killed!@#)
<rares> How about the rotary engine
<rares> that patent is bnburied eeper than friggin Hoffa
<present> haha
09:40pm
<rares> yeah well all the comp co's want out of the comp business anyway
<rares> i mean look around
<rares> they say don't give you kids development tools
<rares> give em word processors
<present> who's saying that?
<rares> $300 top 42000 price tags
<rares> $2000 even
<rares> on dev software
<present> true
<rares> thank god for GNU
<present> yep
<present> nobody actually buys MS visual studio anyhow
<eihrul> what day is it?
<present> Sunday February 13 2000 -- 00:42 -05:00
<rares> Sunday
<present> (according to this server)
<present> its 12:43 EST
<eihrul> ah, so still saturday here
<rares> Saturday in NV
<present> where eihrul?
<abi> eihrul is, like, implementing slate in lisp, so that would be a good start
<rares> NV
<present> NV? 
<rares> NeVada
<present> ahh
<present> legalized prostitution eham
<rares> the first and third letter just like most unix commands
<present> are you guyz like desert hackerz subsisting on cactii and tumbleweed?
<rares> legalized and good too now the fucking pimps don't get rich off their women
<present> heh
<rares> Fuck this I'm getting Moz13 it kicks serious ass
<present> moz13?
<rares> Mozilla
<present> ahh
<present> are u in linux?
<eihrul> nv is hacker-sparse
<rares> SuSE linux rules
* present/#tunes is in boston . home of GNU
<rares> I was in Boston a 2  weeks ago
* rares/#tunes is in CT
<present> indeed
<rares> home of puritan punks
* eihrul/#tunes is in lv, home of illiterate, dead-end hotel workers...
<present> you guys have great highways in CT
<present> haha hotel zombiez
<rares> yeah ppl are trying to get out of here as fast as possible
09:50pm
<present> i lived there when i was a kid
<rares> in anby case Waterbury is a joke and a half
<present> waterbury? is that a town or an illness?
<eihrul> rares: did you go to wpi yet?
<rares> not yet fucking bitch better call me so I can go do this thing
<rares> already applied tho
* present/#tunes envisions a program which computes every possible state, deciding only at run-time which to push to the forefront
<rares> actually that's worse than conditionals
<present> isn't that how some CPUs work? they compute every operation on a pair of operands, only choosing at the end which result to actually use?
<rares> you'd nebver finisah the program
<present> it would have to be quantum then
<present> the run-time conditions would 'collapse' the program into a definite state
<rares> actually I think virtyal reality (great control, brain-damaged programmuing) needs to return to real reality (no control, brilliant promming)
<eihrul> gah, quantum schmantum
<present> what kind of VR are u talking about?
<rares> you realize you would be making the universe ask question in that case
<present> the entire universe would have to participate in the calculation?
<rares> VR as opposed Virtual Fantasdy (Quake) is just the fact you have all thive non reflective crap
<rares> no just a local part
<present> fine by me. they have made transistors that employ quantum tunneling..
<present> what's non-reflective in real VR?
<rares> emergence can be so invisible it's not funny
<present> or do u mean quake is non-reflective?
<rares> non-reflectivity causes you to have to redundantly secify stuff
10:00pm
<rares> quake is is Virtual Fantasy
<rares> something different from VR
<present> yes
<present> i didn't realize reflectivity  had anything to do w/redundant information
<rares> man sometimes I think newspeak has alreadsy come and gone at 20 times over
<present> i need to find a good defintion of reflectiv
<present> heh
<present> doubleplusgood
<eihrul> abi: reflection?
<abi> reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on your brain
<present> what makes u think that?
<eihrul> there ya go
<rares> my necessaries folder is named Semidoubleplusneedable :0
<present> indeed
<present> c++ <-- newspeak
<present> ok im starting to get reflective
<rares> reflection where the model defines the object
<present> if the model necessarily as compact as it can be?
<eihrul> c++ <-- pieceofshit
<present> if=is
<present> eihrul, it has its quirks :P
<eihrul> yes, but it's just a heap of quirks...
<eihrul> there's not real substance to it
<present> i like the whole polymorphism thing, comes in handy enough times to be useful
<eihrul> uh
<rares> how small it gets doesn't matter after a certain point because we already have Torvalds vs Tanenbaum don't need m,ore of that silliness
<eihrul> polymorphism extends beyond C++, man
<eihrul> there's a million languages that offer you polymorphism
<eihrul> and all of the much better than C++
<eihrul> oh, well
<present> i know eihrul, but that was one of c++'s main goal
<present> to make it practical
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
<eihrul> C++ is still crappy and still limiting
<present> multiple inheritance is scary
<rares> LISP , Virtual Function addict's holy grail
<present> some of the semantics are highly 'unintuitive'
<rares> multiple inheritance is easy
<eihrul> yes, C++ is a heap of quirks, that's the general idea...
<present> scary as in sometimes it causes unanticipated wackiness
<present> like getting into 'virtual base classes'
<rares> well true
<present> what were u saying about torvalds vs. tannenbaum
<present> i remember they had some famous dispute
<rares> C++ is C + objects
<present> 'baum complained that linux was just the 'same ol sutff'
<rares> LISP is objects for the sake of objects
<present> lisp is cool
<rares> Gah I hate misty eyed short attention span out with old in with new morons
<rares> the problem with Newand Improved is two fold
<rares> there is nothing New
<present> not true
<rares> and no company wants to Improve
<present> rares, say that in 20 years
<eihrul> probablm with that is...
<present> i think the OS will disappear as a thing ppl notice or ever think about
<rares> dude everything has been already done it's just a matter of resources before it materializes
<eihrul> the new that's being hyped is worse than the old, as i see it
<ult> geez
<ult> lg
<eihrul> and the old we have now, is worse than the old we should have
<present> c'mon we're just at the beginning man
<rares> Ada Lovelace invented computing a century + ago
<eihrul> the beginning of the end!
<present> heh
<present> she didn't invent.. polymorphism!
<rares> wanna bet
<present> the difference engine couldn't play quake
10:10pm
<present> somehow, programming will change from the intensively-manual process that it is, into something else
<present> just like the age of guilded crafstmen went the way of automated assembly lines
<eihrul> shrug, just like we'll all be using electric cars some day...
<rares> only the production went to assembluy lines
<eihrul> and using solar energy pervasively
<eihrul> yeah, that's it...
<present> nah, fuel cells are the new thing!
<rares> you don't see assembly lines of designers do you?
<present> right rares... thats the problem
<eihrul> present: automated software development is too unprofitable for companies...
<present> im sure ironsmiths thought themselves as 'designers' too
<present> eihrul, that's pretty cynical but maybe true in some sense..
<rares> ironsmiths as designers is like the special olympics
<present> think of architecture.. its not 'automated' but the tools and processes have been so well refined that it is much more efficient than it used to be (say 1000 years ago)(
<present> programming is 1000 times more efficient than it was in the age of punchcards, so what's next?
<present> we cant be at the 'apex'
<eihrul> or rather...
<rares> present right now the designer market needs to grow if we're to save PC's and humanity from such beasties as the Factoid
<eihrul> what's to be reintroduced...
<present> factoid?
<eihrul> the science of computing is the science of the wheel!
<eihrul> it goes round and round...
<present> heh
<eihrul> always rehashing the same old ideas
<present> i dont think so.. progress happens
<eihrul> not really
<rares> Compaq wants to make a machine that takes the responsibility of observing reality out of mankinds hands
<rares> you carry it and it records everything
<eihrul> occasionally the something bumps into the wheel and throws it out of its rotation a bit
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc69e.dialup.mindspring.com])
<rares> eihrul is right
<rares> it's thesame old stuff
<rares> and good thing too
<rares> the old stuff lasts longer
<rares> look at it this way
<present> well some of the old stuff wasn't feasible cuz the hardware sucked
<eihrul> it still sucks :)
<rares> can you really justify new editions of math books for K-3?
<present> why not rares. you can refine something almost infinitely
<rares> BIOSes still can't deal with more than 1024 cyls
<rares> refine 2+2 go ahead
<eihrul> present: except to the point of normalization :)
<present> new math man.  2 + 2 is now 5
<present> no. 2 + 2 is whatever you want it to be. whatever makes you feel 'good'
<rares> what is good?
<abi> somebody said good was the opposite of bad?
<eihrul> mmm
<eihrul> migraine
<eihrul> time to leave
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving)
<rares> abi: good is not the opposite of bad
<abi> ...but good is the opposite of bad?...
<present> good is the absence of bad
<rares> abi: forget good
<abi> rares: I forgot good
-:- ult [noone@user-37kbanu.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
<rares> NO! present totally wrong
<present> heh
<rares> :)
<present> you can't define good without getting into circularities
<rares> dude I could outwit an Obrien with my two tongues tied behind nmy back
<present> obrien?
<rares> Obrien the Bad guy working for Big Brother in 1984...
10:20pm
<present> oh shit been a while since i read that
<rares> read it five times
<present> the only notable thing that happened in the year 1984 was.. apple released the mac
<rares> yeah well guess what
<present> conincidence?
<rares> in 1985 Amiga OS was the forst 32-bit multitasking Os abailable
<present> damn
<air> well
<air> i doubt that that
<rares> well what air? you gonna rain on my parade? :)
<air> oops i gues yer right, u slipped that 32bit in there :)
<rares> I'm kicking myself for not getting an Amiga then
<present> did they have a slick gui back then?
<present> like the mac
<rares> I could have satartefd on an Amiga not fucking TRS-8-0
<air> u sure there wasnt a 32bit nix around at that time?
<rares> shit!
<rares> slick GUI they invwnted the word slick
<rares> 4096 colors
<present> color?!
<rares> every one else 4 or 16 colors or onnly monochrome
<present> and ill bet it ran windows2000 !@
<present> ;P
<air> uhh the amiga gui sucked
<rares> AmigaOS
<air> there were restriction on those 4096 colors
<rares> true
<present> u could only display one at a time?
<rares> but that was a hardware problem
<air> i doubt u could use 4096 in a gui environment
<air> present: hahahahaha
<rares> at that point it was the best the industry could ever see
<air> for games it was great cuz the restriction also provided antialiasing
<rares> yes 3 pixels required to produce 24-bit color but damned good
<rares> HAM is pointless these daysa but the design is still veryy useful
<present> HAM?
<abi> it has been said that HAM is pointless these daysa but the design is still veryy useful
<present> heh
<rares> Hold and Modify
<air> hmm lar1 wont get on irc if im here
<rares> 1. Set pixel 1 to 24bit color
<rares> 2. Hold and copy to pixel 2
<present> i c
<rares> 3 modify red, green or bl;ue for pixel 2
<rares> 4. hold pixel 2 copy tpo three
10:30pm
<rares> 5. modify red, green, or blue on 3
<rares> hame 8 produced 24-bit color from an 8 bit stream
<present> hrmm
<rares> HAM8 even
<rares> used on Babylon 5
<present> babylon5?
<rares> yup
<present> what is that?
<rares> Amiga 3000
<present> ahh
<present> so why did it de
<rares> Babylon 5 is a TV show like star trek
<present> de=die 
<present> amiga's are like relics now
<rares> FOX is brain rotting fluid
<present> tv iz bad
<rares> Amiga's didn't rot
<rares> they're still used
<rares> they have web browsers
<present> toasters have web browsers nowadays
<rares> the first inenet set top boxes came out before AOL or prodigy even knew what a network was
<present> amiga net?
<rares> yup
<present> they were too far ahead of their time
<rares> then Commodore sold to the wrong company
<rares> kinda pulled a Judas so to speak
<present> ergg
<rares> 300 Million dollars and they couldn't put out another box
10:40pm
<present> its a conspiracy man
<rares> well we're bringing it back because the PC world is rotting
<rares> better than ever tho
<present> what u dont like win2k?
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving)
<rares> Win2k and its 65000 bugs?
<present> yeehee
<present> read this slashdot article on FMD-ROM
<rares> anyway I'm out of here
<rares> FMD-ROM?
<present> some company is developing this multi-layered 'plastic' media 
<present> that can store much more date than dvd in the same size
<rares> who
<present> check out the article on slash, the company is 'constellation 3d'
<present> it may be a bunch of bullshit but who knows
<rares> and how do we get them bwefore DVD fuckers do
-:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (KVirc 1.0.0 Millennium BETA 3)
10:50pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0213
IRC log ended Sun Feb 13 00:00:01 2000