IRC log started Mon Jan 24 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0124
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<dalvarez_> greetings
06:50am
<smokie> hi
07:00am
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<dalvarez> abi: amoeba?
<abi> dalvarez: wish i knew
<dalvarez> $%'\=[!!!
<dalvarez> does anyone know where I could download amoeba 5.3 source
<dalvarez> except from ftp.cs.vu.nl which somehow doesn't work
<smoke> i can reach ftp.cs.vu.nl
<smoke> ftp.cs.vu.nl/pub/amoeba/amoeba5.3/src/SRC.tar.Z 7,610Kb
<smoke> dated Apr 4 1996. ancient :)
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<dalvarez> we seem to have a problem with the local DNS ... aliases are forwarded and then somehow resolved as hosts not having the appropiate service
<hcf> dalvarez: http://www.cs.vu.nl/pub/amoeba/amoeba5.3/src/
<dalvarez> hcf: EXCPT!
<dalvarez> happened to me trying to access cmu too
<hcf> use a shell or proxy
<dalvarez> using shell AND proxy
<dalvarez> squid something and bash something :)
<dalvarez> or what'cha mean =)
<hcf> dalvarez: r u a tunes member?
12:40pm
<dalvarez> not, but I think I'll contribute even not being one
<hcf> being a member means having a shell on bespin
<dalvarez> as ppl told me it doesn't imply any advantages being one except having a shell account
<hcf> from which u could easily get what u seek
<dalvarez> and being able to modify the page
<dalvarez> ...causing double traffic
<dalvarez> well if tunes has too much money...
<hcf> members, in theory, have more control over what tunes does and becomes
<dalvarez> I'm still humbly and leave phylosophical issues to Fare
<dalvarez> I'll just code what's needed and that'S
<hcf> membership doesnt mean u have to do a thing
<dalvarez> just pro forma?
<hcf> huh?
<dalvarez> if it doesn't imply obvious reasons - I'm sure every ass would like to have one of those magic shell accounts somewhere in the web
<dalvarez> don't you have otherwise access restrictions?
<ult> hmm
<ult> I didn't realize everyone and their mother was getting shells?
* dalvarez/#tunes asks his grandma if she wants to have one too (just for style and stuff)
<dalvarez> hcf: I don't really need one - later maybe
<hcf> dalvarez: whatever
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<dalvarez> what I need now is a download url of amoeba 5.3 source
12:50pm
<dalvarez> hasn't tunes.org itself a mirror? thought amoeba would be popular around cs students
<ult> no
<ult> amoeba is ancient, outdated, old, useless, buggy, old, icky.
<dalvarez> and tunes doesn't exist yet. I just want to gain experience with basic distributed systems
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<dalvarez> ult: can you tell me something about other distributed systems worth in your opinion to take a closer look at
<dalvarez> ?
<dalvarez> I read a bit of a Tanenbaum text about it and thought I'd try it. It's now open source which makes it yet more attractive for edu
01:00pm
<ult> uh
<ult> plan9 was badass
<dalvarez> what's that
<dalvarez> (I'm reading the tunes reviews of existing systems but didn't get to far)
<dalvarez> ahh... you mean that AT&T UNIX successor
<dalvarez> what was about it ? 
<dalvarez> did it come to an end?
<dalvarez> heared not much about it
<ult> its kewl but it died
<ult> cus AT&T fucked up on marketing
<dalvarez> tell me more about it please
<dalvarez> abi: plan9?
<abi> plan9 is, like, at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/
<ult> If'n I had a millyun dollars...
<ult> Well I'd buy you a house
<ult> If'n I had a millyun dollars...
<ult> I'd buy you furniture for your house...
<dalvarez> huh?
* ult/#Tunes grins
<ult> Tis a song...
<dalvarez> seems so...
<ult> well
<ult> distributed OS's are funky.
<ult> Your better off just finding CS research papers (CORA) and reading em! =)
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<dalvarez> consuming informations....
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01:10pm
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<[Alternative]> hi all
03:00pm
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<eihrul> hey fluffie
03:50pm
<eihrul> s/fluffie/fufie
<Fufie> hi eih :)
<eihrul> did you finish tunes yet?
<Fufie> haven't started
<eihrul> doh
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on eihrul
<Fufie> if nothing happens I might try to make a squeaky-like thing in lisp in march
<eihrul> Fufie: that was my idea (leak)
<eihrul> though, if you don't mind collaboration? :)
<Fufie> we had better cooperate then.. ghyll also like the idea
<Fufie> ghyll wanted to try to make a decent vm underneath
<eihrul> vm!? :)
<eihrul> the hardware is the vm :)
04:00pm
<eihrul> well, the language atop the hardware anyway
<Fufie> heh
<eihrul> it would be a shame to make a software-hardware layer above the hardware
<Fufie> not really.. if it provides decent primitives for higher-level lisp-functions it is ok with me
<eihrul> lisp to the metal :P
<eihrul> cmucl et al seem to get along fine that way 
<Fufie> cmucl is too complex imho to base it on
<eihrul> well, it'd be written from scratch of course :)
<eihrul> (reinventing the square)
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<lar1> Hey
<Fufie> hi
<eihrul> Fufie: you could have it target either a vm or metal though... by just treating the vm as any other target... then eventually retargetting off the vm
<Fufie> eih: but I am still in the thinking phase.. finishing up on another project and need to write some on my thesis
<Fufie> so march is the month for me to do an attempt on something new :)
<eihrul> well, i've already started :)
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<Fufie> eih: let me know of any progress
<eihrul> Fufie: the bigger dilemma is defining a lisp or extending one to be suitable...
<Fufie> I believe extending is the best way to proceed for a prototype
<eihrul> eulisp?
<abi> it has been said that eulisp is http://www.bath.ac.uk/~masjap/EuLisp/eulisp.html and http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/lisp/eulisp.html and ftp://ftp.maths.bath.ac.uk/pub/eulisp/
04:10pm
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<Fufie> hmm.. my minix isn't too friendly today
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fufie> but now resolv.conf works at least
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<Kaufmann`> Shalom!
<Kaufmann`> I've got some new ideas for the PORTUGOL editor
04:50pm
<Kaufmann`> Since it'll have a line-up-based syntax similar to Haskell's (converted to SEXP, not to Haskell's ugly C syntax, though), I've come up with an idea for an SCDB-like editor
>>> Kaufmann` [newbie@dial316.infolink.com.br] requested PING 948761391 from #tunes
* Fufie/#tunes sees if he can get lynx working on minix
<Kaufmann`> wow
<Kaufmann`> you run Minix?
<Fufie> yes
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<Kaufmann`> For any specific reason?
<Fufie> because it rocks
<Fufie> Minix  Release 2.0 Version 2
<Fufie> retardo login: 
<Kaufmann`> LOL
<Fufie> I want clisp to run on it
<Kaufmann`> OUCH
<Fufie> but I might settle for a scheme-thingie
<Kaufmann`> CL on Minix... now why didn't I come up with that idea? :)
<Fufie> I just put 4mb extra ram into the 386.. it might work
05:00pm
<Fufie> it now has 8mb ram
<Kaufmann`> Why not just run one of the mini-Linuces? Or a BSD? Or even better, one of those ridiculously small toy OSs like V2? Or maybe the QNX demo?
<Kaufmann`> :P
<Fufie> pah
<Fufie> when you know which supermodels have helped make minix.. nah
<Fufie> http://www.minix.org/2.0.2/wwwman/man8/inet.8.html
<Kaufmann`> supermodels?!?
<Fufie> (see acknowledgments)
* Fufie/#tunes smiles
<Kaufmann`> ROTFL
<Fufie> you never know who you might meet at a minix convention ;)
<Kaufmann`> oh boy
* Kaufmann`/#tunes instantly starts work on a PPC port of Minix :)
* Kaufmann`/#tunes is now learning APL, believe it or not
<Fufie> imagine.. you were just pinged by a minix box:
<Fufie> # ping amadeus.fluid.impa.br
<Fufie> amadeus.fluid.impa.br is alive
<Fufie> now that's something :-)
05:10pm
<Kaufmann`> Egads
<Kaufmann`> that process is still running
<Kaufmann`> :P
<Kaufmann`> amadeus.fluid.impa.br is a ghost from a BitchX session I ran weeks ago
<Fufie> hmmpff.. I gave minix a nameserver and now it has forgotten the stuff in /etc/hosts
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05:20pm
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<Fufie> found xlisp for minix
<Kaufmann`> *applause*
<Fufie> and siod (scheme in one defun)
<Kaufmann`> in one defun?
<Fufie> that's the name
<Kaufmann`> okie
<Kaufmann`> is it really one defun?
<Kaufmann`> one single function... an entire Scheme interpreter
<Kaufmann`> ouch
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05:40pm
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<Kaufmann`> *yawn*
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06:00pm
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* ult/#Tunes sighs
* Kaufmann`/#tunes sighs
<Kaufmann`> it's sigh-figh time
<ult> Kauffie, what's wrong with me?
<ult> I'm a damn animal.
<Kaufmann`> well, we all are
<ult> I don't like it.
<Kaufmann`> well, then be the first to upload your consciousness into a computer.
<Kaufmann`> have a blast.
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> yeah, upload...
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<Kaufmann`> :)
06:50pm
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<Kaufmann`> later
07:10pm
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<water> hello
<hcf> hi
<water> i figured out how to integrate icct and co-induction stuff with arrow papers
<water> it'll take time, but it won't break what's there
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<water> do i know winter from somewhere?
08:50pm
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<water> hi eih
<eihrul> lo
<water> lol the courts made DeCSS source part of the public trial record
09:00pm
<eihrul> justice is blind...
<water> and intel cuts the price on its mobile chips
<water> as if that would solve their problems
<eihrul> it worked before
<water> yeah sure, i'm gonna buy a cheaper chip even though it cuts battery life six-fold
<winter> whome?
<winter> not sure water =)
<air> yay i just beat q3
<winter> im a coder friend of eihrul
<water> oh
<water> hi winter
<winter> hello =)
<water> you in high school too?
<winter> uh no =)
<winter> I make games
<water> a/s/l?
<winter> heh
<water> alright
<winter> 22,male,dallas
<water> hm i have a friend or two there
<winter> cool
<winter> you?
<water> 22m seattle
<winter> mm, visit seattle on occasion =)
<winter> redmond actually
<winter> =)
<water> i wrote 3d graphics engines up until 2 years ago
<water> yikes!
<winter> for who?
<water> for me :)
<winter> oh
<winter> gpled or anything?
<water> i'm stuck in the navy, so i don't get much of a chance to work outside
<winter> oh doh
<water> no, mostly just trying to reverse engineer and improve on existing closed engines
<water> it was a hobby
<water> my friend and i wanted to make a space fighter game
<water> simulation-style
<water> but we had no time to make the actual game
<water> but oh the framerates with 20000 asteroids on the screen and a real-time rendered planet 8)
09:10pm
<air> water: help me make my game
<winter> =)
<winter> the game I last developed was Age of Empires 2
<water> oh cool
<winter> published by ev0l empire =)
<water> what did you do for that one?
<winter> communications programmer
<winter> all the multiplayer stuff =)
<water> ah
<water> i solely worked on graphics
<winter> cool
<winter> im a bit afk.. coding
<air> water: wanna do the graphics for me? :)
<water> but that's cuz i'm more a math wiz than a coder
<water> ok
<water> air: sorry, i'm out of it
<air> im making a space game 
<water> hm
<water> like what i was talking about, simulation-style?
<air> the user has to build a fleet and issue orders and the server does the rest so the user can be offline
<water> oh that's way different
<air> but i want the user to be able to do the simulation too
<air> so u can pick one of yer ships and "get into it"
<water> that's a big stretch for a game engine
<water> especially if you want to control the fleet while in the ship
<air> u give them orders
<water> descrive the format
<air> they will have AI controlling them based on orders
<water> like in descent deepspace?
<air> the game will play itself even with all users offline
<water> er... freespace
<water> that doesn't make much sense
<water> that'd be like an online game of "life"
<water> pretty chaotic
<air> ya but u jump in each day and see what has happened and issue new orders or whatever
<air> build more ships, mine, expand, etcc
<water> well, you'd have to have an option to "park" a fleet in the docks or something or have it defend a planet
<air> and there will even be a "borg" player that will occasionly drop by and torment players with huge fleets of advanced ships
<air> plus u can make allies and shit
<water> no thanks dude
<water> doesn't sound fun to me
<air> sure it does
<water> not to me :)
<water> you haven't made much of a sale here, and i've played online games
<air> i want a mixture of netrek 2d map play, with homeworld style 3d ships that u can move around, plus a in the cockpit fighter player
<air> with games lasting months to years
09:20pm
<water> i don't get it... what's the advantage?
<air> its kewl
<water> bah
<water> every space game is c00l
<water> that doesn't make it worth replaying
<air> ya it does
<air> the game never ends
<water> hell, i had a space game on the apple II that was kewl
<air> one big galaxy
<water> so what? how do you interact with players?
<air> u hail them
<water> yuck... too formal
<air> when they are within range
<air> or u blow them away
<water> ever play EverQuest?
<air> no
<water> ah
<water> that explains your cluelessness about online game addiction
<water> :)
<air> what is it
<water> that game actually works better when people collaborate
<water> it's a d&d-style world
* eihrul/#tunes was more partial to trade wars.
<air> u have to collaborate in my game too
<water> who? eih?
<eihrul> 3D can kill a game...
<water> well, i've seen people love evercrack much more than any other online game
<water> and it's 3dfx-based
<eihrul> .... /usr/bin/lisp, the ultimate game :)
<water> uh
<eihrul> perhaps some day to be topped by /usr/bin/slate
<air> eihrul: what are the best threads to use with linux?
<eihrul> single-threads...
<air> does 2.2 have threads in the kernel?
<eihrul> linux is not the most thread friendly environment... pthreads is okay so long as you don't use large numbers of threads
<water> hm
<eihrul> and whatever you do, don't mess with the stack pointer :)
09:30pm
<eihrul> pthreads doesn't like that...
<air> i need to have the server listening for net connections, processing the AI for each user and then talking to any users that are logged on
<air> stack pointer?
<eihrul> yes, stack pointer... aka ESP for i386
<air> why would i mess with it?
<eihrul> multiplex the net connections
<eihrul> air: just a warning :)
<eihrul> as for the ai...
<eihrul> don't use a whole thread for each one if you don't have to
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<air> this game could have hundreds of users with hundreds of ships
<water> hi witten
<witten> hello
<air> and what do u mean by "multiplex the net connections?
<eihrul> man select
<eihrul> non-blocking io as well
<air> so test each socket instead of blocking
<eihrul> select does it for you
<air> i know
<air> so should i use threads for the AI?
<eihrul> don't use one thread per
09:40pm
<water> yeah
<water> i had a hierarchical fleet ai working without too many problems
<water> one thread per fleet
<air> water: how many players?
<water> and even then, non-interacting fleets (>1000km) were grouped into one thread
<witten> is everyone here making both a programming langauge and a game? :)
<water> single-player
<witten> and an OS? :)
<water> heh
<air> witten: yes :)
<water> no, i used to write game code
<eihrul> air: though... unless you have a lot of cpus, threading isn't going to give you any more speed for your effort than just nice'ing the process generously
<air> ya but threading will give it a huge boost in speed on smp systems
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
<eihrul> i don't think having 100 threads is going to give you a boost...
<eihrul> perhaps 4
* water/#tunes thinks air has pie-in-the-sky dreams
<water> yeah, 4 was plenty for the engine i had
<air> ok, how bout 5 threads. one for each quadrant and one for connections
<air> quadrant AI
<water> define quadrant
<air> 1/4 of the galaxy
<water> ugh
<water> you need to look into real online games
<water> ones with lots of complexity and interaction
<air> this has that
<water> yes, but it doesn't actually *work* yet, does it?
<air> so because its not written yet i should just scrap the whole damn thing?
<air> i think u should do the same with slate
<water> no, you should look at how existing games do it
<water> you weren't listening
09:50pm
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<water> foo
<lar1> bar
<hcf> water: nothing new w/ slate?
<water> no, i've been stuck in reading
<water> and writing for arrow
<water> why? what do you expect?
<hcf> perfection ;)
<water> seriously
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<hcf> nothing
<water> nothing?
<abi> nothing is, like, ever complicated ;)
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<water> abi forget nothing
<abi> water: I forgot nothing
<witten> apparently abi is broken
<witten> it's not forgetting anything properly
<hcf> how so?
<witten> it forgot nothing at all
<water> heh
<witten> if its statement can be trusted
<water> no, seriously, hcf. what would you like to see for slate that i could do quickly?
<lar1> Real time complition :)
10:20pm
<water> easy to say for people who don't help, lar
<hcf> water: just everyday progress if possible
<lar1> I was just joking with you
<water> hcf: well, some suggestions would help. it's not like i have free time to think about what i should work on
<lar1> water:  I don't help you because it would involve learning a whole buncha languages
<water> hcf: i pretty much either work full-throttle on something because i have a good idea to work with at the time, or i'm sompletely relaxing. neither of these allows me to stop and figure out what to do next
<water> it would sure help to work *with* someone on anything
<witten> yeah, that would always be nice
<hcf> rnt u working w/ eihrul?
<water> he doesn't know nearly enough about self
<water> or beta
<water> or many other things
<water> he knows a lot about c and libraries and crap
<witten> sometimes knowing less is a benefit
<witten> offers a fresh perspective.. someone to bounce ideas off of
<water> and unlike me, he can actually code in lisp without getting lost
<water> but he also doesn't get the point of slate, because he doesn't really grok self
<witten> how would you sum up the point of slate?
<lar1> (lisp((has lots)of)parenthesis)
<hcf> lar1: shut up
<water> hm
<lar1> hcf:  Sorry
<water> mostly to improve on self and beta
<witten> what are the respective points of self and beta, then? :)
<water> to make an oo language that's really capable
<witten> okay
<witten> that's a good goal, imo
<water> for instance, pre-emption semantics
<witten> now ya just gotta define capable :)
<witten> you mean like futures?
<water> it's even missing from beta (unless you just access threads packages)
<water> yeah
<witten> oh, that'd be neat
* water/#tunes pulls up the maude concurrency paper to see if they handle pre-emption semantics
10:30pm
<water> i'm also looking at having the namespace / module system be compatible/extensible into memory spaces for processes
<water> and of course to interface with file-systems at a high level
<witten> i thought tunes was orthogonally persistent
<water> it is, but persistence semantics can be variable
<witten> eh?
<water> you wouldn't want to re-boot a system that crashed only to find the same bug, would you? :)
<witten> that's why you make the system not break to begin with )
<water> besides, the system will still have to interface with legacy stuff, if only to get the old data out of them
<witten> i suppose so
<water> don't worry, i have better plans than name-spaces
<witten> an object is a name space
<water> boy, i'm itching to write something on induction vs co-induction, but my ideas aren't presentable yet
<water> witten: an *inductive* object is a namespace :)
<witten> i'm not familiar with that term in this context
<water> er... inductively-defined
<water> one made by enumerating an object's slots
<witten> you'll find that if you use terms that the majority of other programmers know, it'll be a lot easier to convince them to use your stuff :)
<witten> okay
<water> sorry, i'm working at the boundary between many fields
<witten> no problem
<witten> it's just that i often have the same problem myself
<witten> and i catch myself doing it
<witten> so i know what it's like
<water> i bet "ontology" means jack to you, then :)
<witten> actually no, i'm a philosophy major :)
<water> then you really won't like the knowledge-representation version
<witten> whose knowledge-representation version?
<water> the knowledge-sharing initiative
<water> a bunch of database types who think xml ain't enough
<witten> i'm not a database type, but i think xml ain't enough
10:40pm
<water> do a web search
<water> it's a substantial software field
<witten> ok
<water> i thought up a good use for squeak today
<witten> scrubbing the toilet?
<witten> :P
<water> when thinglab gets integrated into the morphic ui, the constraints compiler could be used for instant, dynamically upgradable simulations
<witten> hm
<water> e.g. predicting the effects on the body of diet, exercise, etc
<water> (and sleep)
<witten> sounds like that'd require a lot of knowledge
<witten> to be accurate
<water> you'd need a lot of info, and publicly available sim-code
<water> it would require most likely dept o health support, but squeak is the only system that could handle the dynamic specialization
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10:50pm
<water> "foo" i say!
<witten> baz
<water> such boring people... i throw out ideas and get "hm"
11:00pm
<witten> like i said. gotta dumb it down
<witten> more people will catch on that way
<water> yeah, dumb ones
<water> abi thinglab
<witten> not everyone is as lofty-minded as you :)
<water> geez
<water> well, all the cool tools are practically ignored
<witten> granted.
<water> thinglab beig one of the coolest
<hcf> abi: thinglab is at http://www.2share.com/thinglab/ThingLab%20-%20index.html
<water> abi thinglab is also code at ftp://st.cs.uiuc.edu/Smalltalk/Squeak/Goodies/ThingLab/
<abi> okay, water.
<water> but it's out of date
<water> well, it'll run on sq2.2
<witten> what's it *do*?
<water> it makes visual simulations based on equations
<water> like newtonian physics of all sorts
<water> or electrical / electronic ckts
<witten> ah ok
<witten> very general
<water> yep
<water> and it's coming to a squeak direct-manipulation interface near you :)
<witten> woo
11:10pm
<water> right now, it's just a standard oo "app"
<witten> and it hasn't been worked on since 1978? :)
<water> no, since january
<witten> ah
<witten> not so bad
<water> well, except for the recent integration with morphic
<water> which is supposed to be done in a month or so
<witten> morphic is a reflective ui like self?
<water> morphic was self's ui
<witten> oh
<witten> no wonder it sounds familiar
<water> squeak ported it
<witten> ahh
<witten> i think (conceptually, at least) morphic was the strongest component of self
<witten> the most important, anyway
<water> it isn't very pretty or user-friendly yet, but it's getting there
<water> hm, maude simulates actor languages
<water> asynchronous message-passing
<water> could that be used for pre-emption you think?
<witten> no..
<witten> isn't asynchronous message-passing just traditional block-on-call functions?
<water> i think so
<water> but i wouldn't be an expert
<witten> futures are sort of "fork-on-call" i guess
<water> is there a good overview of the semantics of thread systems?
<water> hopefully high-level?
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<witten> thread systems?
<witten> that's a really broad term
<water> ok, futures
<water> but the broader the better
<witten> hm i know that there was a fairly good eiffel paper on futures specifically
11:20pm
<water> hm ok
<water> what's the url for eiffel? abi doesn't know
<_ruiner_> yahoo probably does water
<water> i'm looking right now
<witten> http://www.eiffel.com/doc/eiffelworld/5.2/scoop.html
<witten> that may be what i'm thinkinf of
<water> hm
<water> what can it handle and not handle?
<witten> what, eiffel?
<water> it looks mostly like beta's concurrency
<water> no, the eiffel concurrency stuff
<witten> it can supposedly handle dining philosophers nicely
<water> heh
<witten> i think i did read about beta having an add-on for futures at one point
<water> hm
<water> remember where?
<witten> in their faq
<witten> it was like a two-line answer. let me see
<water> oh
<witten> http://www.daimi.aau.dk/~beta/doc/faq/beta-language-faq.html#L13
<water> L13 ok
<water> hm
<water> what about pre-emption of threads?
<witten> you mean explicit task switching, or what?
<water> (or would that be something just in the implementation)
11:30pm
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<witten> in the implementation, i think
<witten> just for when a future needs to block
11:40pm
<water> ok
<water> well, i'm planning on writing the implementation in the language at some point
<witten> yeah
<witten> that's a good way to go about it
11:50pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0125
IRC log ended Tue Jan 25 00:00:02 2000