IRC log started Thu Dec 30 00:00:02 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1230 -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ hey, uh water.. i know you are watiing for me but I'm sort of playing games with my friends -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net]) 12:10am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us214.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- hcf_ [nef@me-portland-us326.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf_ is now known as hcf -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-28.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey-lo all Anyone awake? -:- lar1 [larman@1Cust198.tnt22.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes Hey Hey lar1, one of the men I was looking for Ah. What for? To meet you, actually At the hearing you mean? No, just to meet you, here * Downix/#tunes is in New England, the hearing is quite out of the q Ah, I see * lar1/#tunes woke up at 1 pm yesterday The hearing was a few miles from my home Oh well I wish I could have gone * Downix/#tunes would have brought floppies too I got a huge box of 150 of them Wow Anyways, is there somthing inperticular you need? Not really, I mostly wanted to introduce myself properly and see what was going on in your head Ok Right now, I can't sleep, so too much is going on in my head I guess ;) Same here * Downix/#tunes is pondering his memory arch now 01:30am Know much of what I'm doing? No. What are you working on? I'm designing a computer, similar principles to high-end workstations and similar computers such as the Amiga and Atari 800 Around existing chips? Or are you fabricating your own chip designs as well? New chip designs existing chips are made through the "brude force" method for performance Namely "Since we don't know what else is on the system, let's push ours as far as it'll go and hope nothing else breaks" What do you mean? Ok, say you're manufacturing a video chipset you may make specific functions in it that hurt company B's USB control chip like trying to map the same space of RAM or overlapping commands Thats not good In an "off-the-shelf" system such things are common Really? So what manufacturers do, a lot of times, is use the CPU to override these problems by off-loading work to the CPU of course this slows the system down Ever notice that you never get much of a performance benefit with these newer CPU's? I haven't gone above 350mhz pII over here, but I do see your point * Downix/#tunes nods Perhaps more standards of computer design are in order? Perhaps, but standards only lead to abstraction and abstraction leads to degraded performance -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[bespin.dhs.org]: EOF from client) 01:40am So how are you going to solve the problem? What we've done is taken the opposite approach, designing a chipset that is integrated so in the end, the seperate chips function, think and act together Like a form of decentrilzed proccessing? Right Same trick that made the Amiga at 7Mhz do tricks that PC's at 800 can't I am not very familiar with the Amiga Well, the Amiga is a semi-decentrilized design Ours is almost a complete decentrilized computer Almost? We have only core elements from a CPU But we do have them Saves a lot of work by doing so One way to look at the design is a SOC, but that's not quite true SOC? System-on-chip We mostly just abstracted the system to the bare necessities, to avoid the costs normally assosicated with such designs as the AS/400 And still achieve the performance 01:50am Why are new chips needed? Cant decentrlization be done with current cpus? Afraid not and achieve a cost-concious design If we used stock chips we'd raise the cost 400% As is we can deliver performance equal if not better to $8000 workstations for $1000 or $3000 PC's for $500 Has this been prototyped? Not directly, it's direct ancestor design was, and proved the concept But that was in 1994, and times have changed, needs have changed How does your chipset design differ from stock chips? We're finalizing the new design, and (if the gods smile) we should be prototyping in June lar1: Flexibility. Try getting a 3Dfx to display to a TV screen or a HDTV or a video monitor lar1: We can do that w/o any additional firmware or hardware, with 3Dfx you need add-ons, which raise the cost Hmm, I didn't think of that lar1: Also by having a synchronized design, you remove the need for an external synchronizing element, like the CPU How does the chipset synchronise? So multimedia presentations take less work A single clock cycle One clock rate == synchronized design And since the chipset is designed knowing how all of the parts work and interwork, less clogged bandwidth And less wait states for the slower buses? Right So we get the equivelent of a higher-end system w/o paying for it Makes sense I had a similar idea a year or so back But I didn't have the resources to persue it I began mine 27 months ago 02:00am Are you doing this by yourself? Not at all * Downix/#tunes hired the guy who developed the "ancestor" design to 'refine' my ideas, inject his own and then develop the machine as it's found now Cool Very You will be in need of an operating system soon then? Within 6 months Hmm lar1: get working! ;) Does not have to be production quality, but it does need to work. core's done a good pitch of his Clementine, but I'm still open to bids Do you have a virtual machine to 'emulate' your system? Not yet, trying to figure out how to design one * Downix/#tunes has been studying similar virtual machines to figure out how to design one, BOCHS and UAE to be exact Of course both are in C and Fufie's persuaded me to learn LISP Do you have documentation you could send me? Nothing that's cleared the NDA's or legible But hopefully shortly, we're working on the final parts (sound and I/O) now hold on, one doc I can send you Ok it's the original draft concept I assume for the operating system, you will look at a current one and have it ported? Right which is where Clementine came from However, I'm not opposed to making one on our own How much of the system do you need in 6 months? Full blown or bare bones proof-of-concept? base bones we're aiming for a release by 2001, but planning on 2002 JIC something happens You system kind of leans toward the uK design, no? uK? uK is probably microkernel Are you familar with microkernels? I know some about them OS theory is not my strong suit 02:10am microkernels is keeping the kernel very small and then using packets to allow the external components of the OS to communicate with each other, correct? Yes As in Minix, QNX, OS/2 v5, etc, right? Alright Not familiar with all of those, but I belive so As opposed to Monolithic kernels such as AIX, BSD and the like Yes where all parts of the OS are in one gigantic file I am working on a monolithic kernel currently * Downix/#tunes nods I understand no-kernels the best hardware exposed to software I also know the dangers of it I don't understand how one can have a stable system with no kernel Thats like removing traffic signals from the roads lar1: You can't, period end of report. There must be some form of a Kernel Thats what I thought lar1: i put it more like a dragway, pure unadulterated engine power That works as well Total rush, but when things go wrong, you are in SERIOUS trouble If youd like I can get you some documentation on my operating system Looking at how core explained Clementine, there IS a kernel, but it's not mono or mini in any classic sence * Downix/#tunes nods, that would be great Cool AmigaOS was a non-kernel, but it wasn't quite raw hardware either Hmm the end result was something quite fast yet stable... but not perfect What were the downfalls of AmigaOS no memory management often times rushed out the door before it was debugged Uhh, no memory management? How could a system without memory management be stable? often times only through excellent programming 02:20am poor programs crashed the system, and were not used In an ideal world, only excellent code would be relesed Agreed Well, I belive there is a minimum overhead when it comes to proccessing... time must be spent doing things like memory allocation. Whether the kernel does it, or the applications do fancy stuff to allocate themselves memory, the cycles still need to be spent. * Downix/#tunes nods and agrees * lar1/#tunes smiles wide! AmigaOS's main shortcoming was this however And it is not an easily rectifiable one I am glad to see somone aggrees with me on that Ah Little off topic, but how much do amigas go for? Ah well Depends on the model a used 500 goes for $50 Woah while a brand-new 4000 Tower runs close to $2500 I would like to get a old but usable one, a '486' type if you will. They sound very interesting depends on your options a 1200 w/ accelerator card would work but I'd recomend the older models the 3000 in particular Where does one find these things? (not exactly your frys item ;) ) http://www.cucug.org/amiga is the place to go that has links to all remaining dealers remaining? The amiga is dying? Amiga has been dead for years they keep shipping back-inventory left over from Commodore One manufacturer, Micronik, remains, but it sells in Germany for the most part Hmm, but how is the amiga community? Still intact? Still intact, but growing smaller 02:30am Well as long as its there :) Gateway wants the community dead I hate gateway Real men assemble their own boxen! I do as well Real men don't ship used equiptment as new And Real men EXPLOIT technology, not repress it The 3000 was made in 1990? Yes and it is the best Amiga model ever made 68030? Drool... I love the 68000 series! lar1: They have expention cards for the 3000 up to an 060, with a PowerPC "accelerator" running alongside it for those apps that need the horsepower * lar1/#tunes makes it a note to add m68k asm higher up on his queue * Downix/#tunes nods The Amiga is a marvelous machine and it's nothing compared to what we've got a foreshadow How much would a 3000 go for? $400 $800 for a 3000 tower model, which has 3 more Zorro 3 slots Hmm A tad out of my range I am afraid Well, for a very flexible solution, try the 1200 you can find them for $250 in good condition but they're not as good as the 3000, and cost more to upgrade Hmm Being 14 sure makes this hard ;) I know hehe I'm buying a 2000 shortly $250 Much less advanced than the 3000, but as expandible How many of these guys do you own? 4 working, 2 more not Wow p A1000 (the original and still the best), A500, A1200 and CD-32 s/p/ the 1000 is better then the 3000? A1000's you can't get for under $600 Better, yes A500's for $50 A1200's for $300 I take it biger number means nothing 02:40am and CD-32's for $150 lar1: Bigger # means newer Well, not true A500 is newer than A1000 the 500 I could afford, and that CD-32 too. it's complicated :) the CD-32 is a nice box but it's a game console Are there many amiga games? thousands many of them ported to the PC Woah Worms is a prime example same with "Syndicate" and "Sam and Max Hit the Road" I just bought worms 2... Cool game, huh? Classic Amiga game Yes, very I take it no more games are being made? I have AmigaQuake on my system here lar1: Hell yeah games are being made For a dead hardware with a shrinking community??? Quake, Quake 2, T-Zero, Nightstalkers, Quake 3 lar1: The "shrinking community" is still 300,000+ people and the dead hardware is still being upgraded. It's the AMiga's strength that it CAN be upgraded after all of these years it's Zorro slots are equal to PCI, and the new Z4 slots are faster than AGP I salute those companys! 300,000 is not very many in comparson to the countless x86 users. Wow Damnit! See what you've done... all I wanted to do was clear my mind and now I am going to by a box. Your a dangerous man ;) Plus with PowerPC accelerator co-processors to the 68k series, the Amiga is better than the Macintosh lar1: Imagine when my hardware is done I will be the first to buy get in line * Downix/#tunes has a "I'll be first to buy" list of 400+ people Woah half of which from when I did not even have a hardware spec done * Downix/#tunes should have been a car salesman 8) Heh I swear I should just go to the VC's as/is and pitch it, I'd walk out with $150mil right there What stops you? I need the financial analisys done and not looking like I've got 2 extra zeros at the end I keep shringing our market share and scope to look less like a pipe dream 02:50am Are you allifiated with the freedom cpu project? Yes I like them, so I give them a hand as I can Hmm Are there any perticulars you would like to see in the os? just be as flexible as the system, and be capable of handling varying "work environments" including as a single-tasking system I have very minimal requirements mostly I need speed and be intuitive to the end-user This involves a working gui at the time you sit down and decide? No GUI is nice, but not a deciding factor What makes a text system "intuitive" to you? Not the text-system, but the underlying structure Isn't that the part that the user will never see Yes, but you can tell by looking at it how hard it would be to impliment an intuitive GUI on it Ah Like, look at DOS and see how much of a pain Windows is I see what you mean Right Do you have a formal listing of requirements? Let me see if I still have them on this system Ok Thans no problem the osideas is a discussion about OS's that I had ok the other is a basic list of requirements 03:00am How many other operating systems have been presented? So far Clementine... and Alonzo's Plus I have QNX on file Which is a "If nothing else works" choice POISX... uhg As for the rest of your requirments Well, it is an industry standard Raven will meet them * Downix/#tunes nods POSIX is not a "critical" one as I noted Ok Neither is multiuser? and if it'll compile basic ANSI C software I don't care Neither is multiuser Ok Could you elaborate on RT envrioment? Amiga is not POSIX, but it's UNIX Sys V complient RT simply means saying that the mouse pointer is more important to the multitasker than compiling program xyz Oh, ok, that had me worried :) Ok And it's nothing to worry about really the hardware does almost all of the work already What I don't understand is, if your harware is so radically different, wouldn't a os designed just for that hardware make more sense? lar1: It would, but I lack the resources or contacts to make it. Perhaps once you get it off the ground the os could be tweaked further * Downix/#tunes shrugs I lack OS design knowledge and only Alonzo is willing to make an OS for me, but it's ATG.... I am willing to make an os for you 03:10am Well, then I'll put you next to Clementine and Sphere... ok, just Clementine Sphere? Sphere is Jim Little's Sphere project, at http://www.teleport.com/~sphere * Downix/#tunes has yet to see anything of Sphere other than a stolen project name Heh AlonzoTG used Jim Little's project name for his OS it's sad * lar1/#tunes is having trouble finding an Amiga dealer in CA... Paxtron is the only one I know of Ok And they're... dirty dirty? They like to play games with other dealers and are mob backed Yuck Yeah but they have good connections, and can get anything you want no questions asked How are they treating customers? Especally someone like me? VEry nicely after all those customers are the key to their fencing operation they sell merchandise under cost, and then pad it with "funny money" to make it all seem legitimate Similar trick to mob-backed car dealers funny money? stolen money, money from drug deals, etc. Ah Anyways, they are a good source I just dislike their, um... tactics Is the 500 worth getting? Not really not enough expantions for them you can get it to an 030 CPU maximum 03:20am * lar1/#tunes is checking eBay * Downix/#tunes nods on eBay Amiga's go for higher prices, but you may luck out All I see is some parts, 2 500s and _lots_ of programs * Downix/#tunes nods Well, for the 500 I can point you to where to buy the 030 expantion for it I have a bodega bay for it, which is NICE bodega bay? It's an external case that gives the A500 3 Zorro 2 slots Amiga is a very expandible design What would I put in the Zorro slots? GFX card, Video Toaster, more RAM, hard drive controller, whatever you felt like What exactly is a Video Toaster? High-end video editing system made for the Amiga Nice, I want one :) Umm used in such things as Babylon 5, SeaQuest, Star Trek: Deep Space 9 $4000 for one this 500 looks like an apple IIe it's smaller than one and much lighter but similar concept, keyboard computer case no HD controller in an A500 Eww Auction is at $26 with 1 day to go Go for it err 2 days a HD-controller for it costs $50 Hmm I don't know including a case to hold a standard 3.5" HD and up to 8 megs of RAM Well, it's up to you What can I _do_ on this box? As is, play Amiga games, early demos The A500 is the most primitive Amiga made even the CD-32 can do more Its comparable to the Apple IIe? No For it's niche, it's comparable to the Pentium-90 out of it, 386-40 03:30am I hate the p90... my 486 100 is better! Agreed These guys have no moniter But for what it's made to do, the Amiga 500 IS an Amiga They use TV's Regualr TVs? Yes Hmm All amigas or just the 500? All Amiga's Use TV's or RGB monitors but there's an adaptor to get them to use VGA Hmm Or you can plug in a vga card But getting VGA to work on the Amiga is strange, however it improves performance a great deal Can it play newer games or just smiple games? "Bouncing babies" comes to mind newer games Worms works on it Was worms II made for amiga? Yes Sorry, its just the case It makes it look power less :) * lar1/#tunes doesn't discount it thoguh hehe Downix: have u played speedball? the hand ball type thing Yes I have it's fun indeed Hmm THinking about it, there IS an 040 card for the A500 Do _all_ amigas come in this case??? Which is enough to play Quake No, only the "entry-level" designs, the A500, A600 and A1200 the A1000 had a strange desktop case that looks more like art than a computer case Heh The A2000, 3000 and 4000 all had stock looking desktop cases there are also 3000 and 4000 towers What about the cd-32? The Commodore Development designs (CD-TV and CD-32) looked more like a CD-player or DVD-player 03:40am And they aren't exapndable? Quite Ah Hmm CD-TV (VERY rare, only 300 made) could be expanded in ways no other amiga can be CD-32 is quite expandible as well, with an 800-pin direct bus slot on the back of the unit Both of them have built-in CD-ROMS and can play audio or iDisc video CD's The biggest problem with Amiga is that while their color palette is equal to any modern PC, they're display resolution stank thanks to Commodore's altering of the design after the A1000 TVs have crap for resolution That vendor you mentioned, do yo uhave a URL? http://www.paxtron.com last I knew thnka err Thanks TV's resolution is not too bad, especially european PAL TV's Yah, well I am stuck with US NTSC ... * Downix/#tunes nods I am lucky, I have an Amiga monitor http://www.paxtron.com doesn't exits let me check then Ahhh! Its 4 am! Crap! Maybe they were raided again ok, I'll catch you later then Raided again? No, i'll stay a little longer ok, hold on Paxtron has been shut down by the feds before But then it was called "Grapevine" computers 03:50am Uh mmm, perhaps I shoudn't do buisness with them Centsible Software - Sells used Amiga and C64 game titles. Recently took over all of Paxtron's stock. --http://cucug.ukonline.co.uk/amicommercial.html lar1: See why I said I did not deal with them? hcf: Sounds about right, let me find him someone semi-local I have a weird reaction to some types of athority, casinos, and the "drug dealer" or "mob" type oh? I don't like them... I mean I _really_ don't like them... ever read _brave new world_? Yes I have Well its almost as if I was "conditionded" to not like those things Where in Cali? San Jose .em nods let me see No luck :( 6 dealers in Cali however Ok, where are they? Paradice Grover Beach Arcadia Stockton Milipiteas Sacramento Sacramento! San Diego San Diego! Ritalo I have access to Sacramento and San Diego Hollywood Ok, let's focus on there then Possily Milipiteas HT Electronics Phone: 916.925.0900 that's the Sacramento ok IHD Global Computer and Video Consortium Phone 619.298.9946 that's the San Diego Any web site? No luck hmm ok Well 3 of the other ones do however Oh? http://www.wordbench.com 04:00am http://www.utah.net/Benscomp http://www.consumercomp.com Ok, thanks for the amiga info and the discussion Alright I need to get to bed I'll have the os info for you soon I hope almost 7am Alright, thanks Later later -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Read error: 1 + 8 = -1 (Connection reset by third grade math)) -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) 04:10am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us326.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-192.tscnet.net]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us220.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us220.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us220.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us220.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us220.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- c [hirc32@ppp135-26-109-202.online.sh.cn] has joined #tunes -:- c [hirc32@ppp135-26-109-202.online.sh.cn] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no]) -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-14.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-21.s275.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-21.s275.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn73.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes om anyone there? 09:00am -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp136.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes umm yes eh? hi eih :) al asked "anyone there?" probably a long time ago, but then I was afk, now I am here ;) oh * eihrul/#tunes wishes ANSI Common Lisp had not waited till page 160 to explain macros. heh.. but macros are extremeley powerful and can be really tricky :) to write proper macros you need much of the stuff in chapter 1-9 sure, but graham portrays them as a black box... "This is a macro. That is a macro. They do things that violate the behavior of functions." and you sit there wondering for 160 pages how macros work exactly and not realling noticing the rest :) s/realling/really the On Lisp book is the master on macros -:- iepos [iepos@d11.k1-4.tecinfo.com] has joined #tunes atleast he could introduce them incrementally 09:30am he probably means that macros would confuse too early -:- dido [dido@giga.prosa.it] has joined #tunes sure they would but not everybody... the concept of macros is very simple the concept yes the implementation can be tricky though I go into "concentrate" mode when I write macros beucase I don't want to fight subtle bugs later -:- dido [dido@giga.prosa.it] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Leaving) 09:40am * smoke/#tunes is off for holidays bye everyone and have a nice millenium celebration s/eni/enni/ om or watch the apoccolypse. =) or don't... 09:50am -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.243] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (got some DOS to do.) actually, jehovah's witnesses made a version of "Apocalypse Now" it was called "Apocalypse Now .. Please.. NOW!.. PLEASE.. GOD DAMN IT" -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-30.s284.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes odd hmm, can return many values in lisp, fun :) Fufie: hmm, clisp or cmucl? 10:20am clisp or cmucl for what? learning? choose clisp of the two acl just seemed seedy... seedy? i download an 11 MB tar and no unzip utility :) sounds weird the least they could have done was include it... stig@apal(19:21)115> tar tvf ~/ftp/SDS/developer/acl5.01.redhat5.tar -rwxr-xr-x 483/50 89708 Nov 19 23:27 1997 trial/redhat5/unzip (among other files) object:/usr/src# find trial trial trial/README.trial trial/license.txt trial/redhat5 trial/redhat5/README trial/redhat5/license trial/redhat5/redhat5.zip nada mas and the unzip i have doesn't like that particular zip two sec. gracias no problem the lispers in the world are so few and far between that some effort to help out is needed I guess ;) well, i wasn't going to download all 11 MB of ACL again :) 10:30am * eihrul/#tunes listens to the music of an HD thrashing. Allegro CL Trial Edition 5.0.1 [Linux/X86] (6/29/99 16:11), yay it's alive! good :) * eihrul/#tunes just wrote his first lambda :) one other neat thing you could try if you want to dowload some stuff is to let ACL update and patch itself 10:40am there, first macro when you want to, check the function SYS:UPDATE-ALLEGRO which connects to franz and then updates and patches yur version.. lemme finish this dern book first :) -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (main(){fork();main();}) 10:50am ((lambda (x) (x x) (lambda (x) (x x))) (it's scheme, not CL) 11:10am its missing a paren :) er it just has too many :) 11:20am counted 7 open parens.... 6 close parents -t misses ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) * eihrul/#tunes nods. thought so the OMEGA combinator eih: umm yes.. 11:30am smkl: thanks it's easy to lose track of parens when not in emacs 11:40am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp136.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp136.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-50-55.s309.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-212-109.s617.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-140.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[209-122-212-109.s617.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- san_ [guest@ppp-21-1-227.libero.it] has joined #tunes hello san hi interested in tunes? .. just the name .. I'll look at the site later the *name*? k the name of the channel and the topic i've no time now, sorry see ya later oh ok -:- SignOff san_: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:20pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us244.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-140.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-10-33.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * Fufie/#tunes yawns.. * water/#tunes stretches frustration anyone got any ideas fornverting minimal lisp to arrow? heh... anyone listening? ask the mlist has beh contacted u? i suppose that i should, but i doubt they grok it no 02:40pm it's amazing... i was closer to making Tunes in college using Euphoria than tunes has ever become and i threw out the darned prototype! i had a self-bootstrapping lisp with a gui and it actually booted from bare hw and you deleted it? well, when i went into the navy, i gave away the computer to charity keep in mind, i didn't think tunes a worthwhile project a the time * water/#tunes tries out OCaml * Fufie/#tunes gives water a *bonk* over the head.. whatever :) 02:50pm the only reason i regret it is that this project is such a waste of people's interest i really hate programming I hate all the mumbo jumbo with unicode, utf-8, iso9989, ascii, 8-bit, 7-bit, etc iso8859 I mean that's just a specific case of the more general crap that programmers like well, ocaml's lame, now i'll take a look at coq -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us244.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us244.javanet.com] has joined #tunes 03:00pm brb what the hell am i going to write to the mlist? n/m, its pointless heh 03:10pm because of me or them? :) both well, what can i do? i really dont know * water/#tunes wonders if a psychologist would help how about comp.lang.lisp? to help with arrow? they'd understand as much of it as Fare assumption -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp136.lvdi.net]) yeah, but it seems pretty likely for usenet how would attacking this w/ bruteforce hurt u? *usenet* because brute-force programming seems like it would completely miss the point of arrow arrow is in st now? yeah can st do anything CLOS cannot? -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes st isn't the point i mean posting to every possibly helpful (no matter how hopeless) place i don't use very many st features at all sorry, the morale of this one-person development team is getting pretty damned pessimistic besides, i've never used a satisfactory lisp environment 03:20pm has anyone ever heard of a lisp-native lisp code browser that was graphical (not just visual)? yes.. LW is lw? lw is, like, nice as well but is slower than ACL and CMUCL for a lot. it has a nice gui though, but I like Emacs and the ACL<->Emacs interface is it wysiwyg? wysiwyg? i mean, not emacs-like i *hate* emacs it has an emacs-like editor, as well as many "visual"/"graphical" tools clicky-click stuff where to get it www.harlequin.com of, *their* lisp ACL also has graphical stuff for their Win-version yeah, you say that my bet is that it'll be as lame as the usual ide you're a pessimist no, i've been dissappointed too many times, and i like squeak it's been a while since I used squeak and it was quite rudimentary back then visualworks was better squeak 2.6 is pretty damned good, and 2.7 modularizes the code water: ur filtering is broken, just disregard dissappointment my filtering is broken? huh? "i've been dissappointed too many times" so u wont try things i've tried quite a few things, thank you just because i haven't tried every single lisp distro known to man.... or posting to comp.lang.lisp or tunes@tunes heh. 9mb 12mb documentation! compressed! 03:30pm * water/#tunes opens up his newsreader any suggestions for a title that will attract the right attention? i don't do many usenet posts heh thanks MAKE MONEY FASTER.. WITH LISP or lol LISP CRUSHES FORTRAN ON MAJOR NUMERICAL BENCHMARK or "C++ is better than LISP" BJARNE STROUSTRUP ADMITS THAT C++ SUCKS AND LISP IS BETTER lol thanks smkl: that will only result in killfiling :) but seriosuly smakl: as well as "Lisp is dead" -a 03:40pm damn squeak is still smaller than lw are you guys serious? i should really go for the billboard approach? make a normal and decent topic what do you want to do anyway? yeah, whatever... i get no responses that way i tried that in comp.lang.lisp a year ago as well as comp. theory and some others comp.lang.lisp is quiet these days anyway.. everything is read what about "Lisp for Information Theory"? very good or lisp-based info theory? or info-based lisp theory heh hm Information Theory is a known discipline so people know what that is yeah actually, i should jsut use lisp-based info theory the other way wouldn't be right theory-based lisp info? heh -:- fire [no@209-68-229-31.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes * water/#tunes tries to formulate an appropriate question howdy howdy (permute "lisp-based info theory") ; that should do it hi fire fufie: snowing outside ;) ? snow sucks i'd think it'd be pretty cold up there no, rain in december sucks 3 degrees celcius * water/#tunes lives in seattle yep. rain at that temperature is the pits seattle must be a nice town.. actually, it's very nice it supposedly has the same weather as where I live, Bergen we shove all our bad karma into the rain 03:50pm I also think it is a friendship-city :) the rest is good karma -:- fire` [no@209-68-229-31.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes grrr -:- fire` is now known as young_dave_in_love yes indeed -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes damn im lagged water: too bad about the new years eve canceled hey. What's that, Fufie? binEng! tis me fire ah, fire :) bin: what? yeah hey bin Fufie: new years eve canceled? why haven't anybody told me? * binEng/#tunes waves to everybody bin: only in seattle ah, pheu bin: and in telianor's offices :) -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Read error to fire[209-68-229-31.dialup.cust.tfb.com]: Connection reset by peer) young_dave_in_love: Your nick begs for an explanation :) no it doesn't :P does too does not :( * Fufie/#tunes hopes fire/dave has met a really cute girl/boy/whatever :) :D fire: ok, so it doesn't. Now, what's the story? ;) heh... whatever awww...shucks -:- young_dave_in_love is now known as fire` :P sure got quiet fast we're only waiting for you, fire there is this one girl blah blah blah that's all you need to know lol fire: you'd make a decent american president :) -:- _BC [dontcha@ptai01m02-122.bctel.ca] has joined #tunes :D well... considering this channel is logged and known of by search engines, yes. <_BC> Hi all! yeah there is some incriminating info in a log a while back hi bc hi * binEng/#tunes and everybody else just went searching the log ;) <_BC> Hi water! I remember chatting with you before... :) hi bc yep <_BC> Hi bineng,fire` too! -:- fire` is now known as fire bc: what's up? <_BC> I can't stay long. How has Tunes worked out over the past 6 months? it's a short story, bc water: what is an educational program I should write to get better like you said last night? * _BC/#tunes is still also working on his own OS. I lost my documentation from my original design draft. So I'm started over last month. _BC: AFAICT, not much has happened. 04:00pm fare is still spending his time wondering what language to write the HLL in _BC: Do you have it online? fire: dunno. maybe try to write a gui <_BC> Hmm. Well, I hope some designs have been worked on anyway. :) something without graphics _BC: I think not :/ fire: huh? fire: why not? cause i don't know how <_BC> No binEng. I don't have any code yet, and the specs are only in Word95 and in my head so far. I plan on making a site for it fairly soon. duh duh duh ;) fire: uhh _BC: I've got Word. hmm well fire: ever written a game? like a mud or something? no try it hmmm hell, just write a program that plays checkers ok <_BC> I'll wait and put it up in HTML for everyone to see. My original design was something very small but flexible. I've dropped that mandate for more reality. :) <_BC> How about X's O's? :-) "more reality" vs "small and flexible"? bc: too easy like um what is an ansi equivelent of gotoxy? <_BC> I mean, not so tiny. Scalable. _BC: I'm doing something related. Maybe I could give you feedback. wtf? ... <_BC> binEng; could at that. I've chatted with tcn before about some ideas. Has he been around lately? fire: use tabs, i guess seen tcn seen tcn? abi: seen tcn? tcn was last seen on IRC 68 days, 9 hours, 43 minutes and 40 seconds ago, saying: is away. Automatically set away [SZon] [Sat Oct 23 07:22:48 1999] * water/#tunes installs LispWorks there how about towers of hanoi? <_BC> have to go for now. bbl all. BYEEe bye bye -:- SignOff _BC: #TUNES (Leaving) Fufie: missed the mark, dude que? i asked you if you new of a native lisp code browser s/new/knew this ain't native brb -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that a-way!) heh bah que hehehe estas loco 04:10pm me and a few of my friends started saying 'que' after being inspired by fawlty towers fare used to speak spanish with me...that is until he went crazy uhh, what does 'ln' do without the '-s'? hardlink ya what exactly is that it shows up as a normal file A "hard link" is another name for an existing file; the link and the original are indistinguishable. (Technically speaking, they share the same inode, and the inode contains all the information about afile--indeed, it is not incorrect to say that the inode *is* the file.) how cheap can i get a decent lin modem? but its still a link right? air: yes.. the first "file" is also a link though ok * fire/#tunes is sick of the word meta brb 04:20pm has anyone ever read the NOTES section of 'man 2 time' and seen how nicely it works for year 2000 and that they gamble on C being dead in 2100? -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-179.s179.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes om :) .... i've been telling the people in the yahoo corel stock page that linux won't last any long that windows but they won't believe me huh stupid ppl "won't last any long"??? for some reason they think linux torvalds started the open source freeware movement linus longer rather -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp61.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes linus damnit im not typing correctly today "won't last any long that windows"???? 04:40pm uh longer than , :) who started the "open source freeware movement"? rms i know it wasn't linus it was rms how about Knuth releasing TeX? or people releasing Unix? free software was a concept long before RMS formulated the GPL and started FSF/LPF people think Linus is like god or something u asked who started the movement no air: yes rms started it but could he start something which already was a movement and the way things were done? there was no movement -:- young_dave_in_love [no@209-68-229-31.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes -:- young_dave_in_love [no@209-68-229-31.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has left #tunes [] hmmm 04:50pm -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Interrupted system call -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Interrupted system call -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [1] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is sterling.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 15 12:37 EDT(from sterling.openprojects.net) -:- sterling.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(61)] 10% -:- [global users on irc(267)] 43% -:- [invisible users on irc(354)] 57% -:- [ircops on irc(18)] 3% -:- [total users on irc(621)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(28)] (avg. 22 users per server) -:- [total channels created(186)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !sterling.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 91 (82 clients) !sterling.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System -:- topic set by hcf [Mon Dec 27 20:22:46 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ lar1 ] [ hcf ] [ eihrul ] [ AlonzoTG ] [ air ] [ Fufie ] [ smkl ] [ abi ] [ Fare ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.374 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES Hello TUNES :) em om * AlonzoTG/#tunes has his headfones to blast brain out of skull volume. Heh these aren't the wimpy normal headfones... they're the big fat-ass headfones... I love those!! 08:00pm You can't hear athing around you with those on! =) I wish the power supply on my computer was better so there wasn't so much line noize in the output from the DVD drive... =/ Yes I have a DVD drive and windows 3.11 and only 16 megs Eww... line noise and a 5 year old $300 video card all in one computer. =P Upgrade please :) I have a 19" monitor too. Okay give me windows 3.11 drivers and I'll get whatever hardware you want me to. You won't use 95/98/2000? Get Lost. Linux? rumour has it Linux is better at trashing Windows NT than even NT is. Fuck Abi, no, linux is elementry penguin singing hare krishna. okay, AlonzoTG. Windows 3.11 is my inspiration. Oh god If I got too comfortable with any other Os I wouldn't be able to write my own. Itd be cheating! ;) every time windows 3.11 crashes I am reminded why I am in the OS business. Heh 08:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1008.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1008.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1008.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1008.javanet.com] has joined #tunes BONZO IS GOD. bonzo? Led Zeppelin's drummer. or precusionist. eihrul: What project are you working on again? i killed my project Sphereos Why? Cuz I need a G00D Os. lar1: because core has something better What does core have? clementine Do you grok it? grok what? Clementine sure, i couldn't say it was better if i didn't Could you explain it to me please? 08:30pm hold k those should explain a lot Ok Thanks conversations i had with core on clementine 08:40pm oops now I can't hear. =( eh? 08:50pm had my headfones too loud. oh great, noise about noise :) -:- water [water@tnt-10-86.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes sorry i left so abruptly earlier Good evening water hey be right back, I want to eat a cookie :) water: u post anything yet? no, i had to leave the house quickly before i was done writing the post 09:10pm wooo hooo! millinium meltdown Madness! =)))) 09:20pm say, water, is your reactor ready? yes good. besides, our reactors are cold right now well today's the day. =P -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) Back My dad had a licence to run expermental reactors huh? * water/#tunes thinks lar1 HAS to explain that Whats to explain He was athorized to run expermental nuclear ractors what kind of reactors, why your dad would mess around with fission, .... working for whom? I dunno... he has a pHD in radiology oh 09:30pm was he allowed to let them go critical? -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp61.lvdi.net]) I don't know He didn't elaborate much hm I saw a show on aircraft carriers yesterday Hmm, I assume you don't take kindly to the Village People? heh. no Perhaps you could help me create documentation explainging my os... I don't have the faintest idea were to begin. What are things like standard aspects that I should address? docs for programmers? No, just general docs explaing the basic design oh architecture and such Yes abi osweb? somebody said osweb was at http://www.osweb.8m.com -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp219.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes darn it, remember an os-coders web site that explained a lot well, just explain how your os gets stuff done, block-diagram-wise make sure to describe the programming interface 09:40pm like what the interrupts do, how process / threads work, ... water: hints to which site, i'l find the url ;) Gets what stuff done? s/site/site?/ heh I was thinking lar1: ever looked at a block-diagram of an os? No Have links to some? well, then, just describe what modules your os has, and how they interact i remember that the exokernel project has one abi exokernel? hmmm... exokernel is a system with no run-time kernel or see pdos.lcs.mit.edu * eihrul/#tunes ponders the irony of that statement. :) heh i know that there's a diagram of the beos at be * eihrul/#tunes has an old xfig lying around. Insted of having interupts for kernel services, why couldn't most of the services be part of the applications? Complied in like macros at runtime. Thus the kernel becomes mostly a set of libarys and less an application. Of course, some parts like memory managemnt and task handling wouldn't be this way. sounds like a uK :) or the hurd nemesis does something like that but not quite like that... by trying to integrate as much of the OS into one domain (though with many domains) I thought a uK had threads yapping to eachother a whole bunch more then a monolithic? yes but a monolithic can still have threads yapping at eachother heh * water/#tunes now has a wierd picture in his mind... threads yapping But the design I just stated would introduce no more yapping then a mono... the main difference with a uk is YABL ? eh there's essentially little difference in the amount of yapping its how the yapping is done in monos versus micros that is signifigant the problem with letting user programs implement os services is that you have to *check* the code or trust it you have to trust a monolithic kernel to work as well true but checking there is centralized Well the idea is that the code is moved from an interupt to the app itself, the code would be the same... (aside from bug-reports) so could it be with a uk if you had only one vendor distributing the OS parts yeah (beos, AFAIK) True How much over head is saved by not using interupts? lar1: user-interrupts? well, its the other way around water: Yes, like the 21h for dos the application is not an application any more 09:50pm eihrul: Its less overhead to use interupts? eh? interrupts are not exactly cheap keeping all code in the same domain is signifigantly more efficient in many aspects Would a table of calls be cheaper? its just less "secure" there's always the option of using an hll in certain places to get security and user-level implementation of services * eihrul/#tunes thinks this discussion has followed a tangent, or atleast a secant. eihrul: Well for me its an importatn secant yes, back to lar1's question But we can retangentify later :) ok lar1: i think what you've described is an executive library, actually It was a shower idea :) collective intelligence strikes again heh What are the ups/downs of executive libs? A) usually no security B) applications usually have to be compiled with the executive statically to form the system as a whole and i can't think of a C off the top of my head How would a system do 'checking'? What would it be checking for? 'checking'? lar1: they usually don't check at all But if they did? lar1: they do checks by interrupting calls at run-time And looking for what? bad memory accesses among other things (not quite easy to detect those in an executive) no, but they try 10:00pm Doesn't the proccessor fault if there is bad memory access, alowing the kernel to recover and slap the application? heh. theoretically When would this not occur? if the executive and the program are in the same domain when you use 'doze :) then you can't easily protect from either one clobbering memory of the other well, there is the case of software-based memory protection lar1 is doing his OS in assembly AFAIK What if parts of the kernel were in another domain? Video, keyboard, etc at the app domain, but memory, tasking, etc in the kernel domain? Yes, eihrul then you're going back to the kernel... (everything you put in the kernel will come back to haunt you!) Its half executive and half mono and half exo and half micro, no? the program will always want more than you give... so long as you give static services What do you mean that if you're going to have a kernel, make sure that you don't provide a fixed definition of the kernel and atleast provide for some extensibility just like the modular linux kernel Linux is slow in booting because of modules shrug... slow boot versus no extensibility yeah, recompile without unneeded modules What kind of extensibility? well, not having to reboot is nice (no boot is faster than a fast boot) true that and you don't necessarily have to put everything in the kernel you want to avoid having to reboot a lot (which can contribute to space efficiency) With an execlib there would be no reboot though ram is plentiful :) well, not an executive lib in itself executive libraries are an extreme case of static Its sacrafises size for speed, no? eh, they're usually both smaller and faster 10:10pm If functinons have to be compiled in the apps, instead of being in an interupt? That takes more space, right? if dynamically linked, no Dynamic linking is asking for instability eh? looks at windows .dlls... look at all the .so's you have... Hmm I think I am going to settle this by implemnting a small part of my kernel in different ways and using the profiling registers to give the final word? one of the parts i liked in particular about clementine is it abstracts all this away Ahh! Abstraction! brb agg, the seventh sign a GPL'd "Y2KWA" program which one is that? heh its on freshmeat 10:20pm lar1: hate to break it to you, but the really static case is usually going to be faster (with slight exceptions) some things can really only be done dynamically which is why efficiency is not always the driving principle behind a particular design though what is ironic is that what makes the kernel efficient can just make programs inefficient hm any time you need some information that's locked away in the kernel you have to jump through hoops to get, especially efficiently yeah 10:30pm hmmm brb -:- water [water@tnt-10-86.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-16.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes re -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. Please bear with us through some messages as services reinitializes. 10:40pm -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/ -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System back What types of things can be done only with dynamic linking? most things that are dynamic Example? extension of replacement most anything :) Hmm it's general-purpose exokernel sounds foo from this paper I am reading foo? Rubbish heh but it works It sounds very hoopy wtf is hoopy? You have to jump through a whole crapload of hoops And have a 3 ring circus With a tight rope walker and you would know of course But no ringleader :) being the expert here :) I didn't say I was right I said, from the impression this paper I am reading, it sounds like that hmm that prick hasnt sent me my $200 check yet For the games traffic? how long does it normally take for a check to travel from canada to utah lar1: ya Not too long I'd imagine 11:00pm well anyone wanna buy a copy of my web editor? version 0.2 is ready which one is it? oh, *your* web editor http://www.qzx.com/x/test/.edit/ login as test:test that one? ya its now one big 18k file what's it good for besides virtual directory management? plus one small 3k file u can edit web pages dude wiki is better dude wiki doesnt say QZx on it and i don't even like wiki :) and i doubt wiki looks anything like mine ya, it looks *better* :) air: looks dont matter hcf: yes they do hcf: good UI is important air: exactly :) air: Where did you come up with the name QZx? web page wise air: which is why you couldn't pay me for yours, because wiki is already free given enuf parsing u can make it look anyway u want -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us704.javanet.com] has joined #tunes lar1: long story air: I have time :) i dont :) 11:10pm air: Hmmph :) anyone know why star division's website is down? cuz somebody bought them and... i think sun hm why wouldn't they just forward the request, though? * water/#tunes checks around sun's site i guess they figured that everyone that used it would read /. heh subject: Grow Lush, Healthy Houseplants Effortlessly! i love spam lol i've not noticed before, but sun's site has no ads maybe cuz sun is kewl and they dont like em 11:20pm well im off -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- higby [root@tnt001.web-ster.com] has joined #tunes lo all hi root i know i know hehe but i havent figured out how to fix my modem yet k so be nice sure what is the chan you guies told me to go to last night. linuxpeople #linpeople something like that thanks 11:30pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[3Cust200.tnt20.sfo3.da.uu.net]) -:- higby [root@tnt001.web-ster.com] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-16.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-10-248.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 [lar1@1Cust137.tnt31.sfo3.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1231 IRC log ended Fri Dec 31 00:00:00 1999