IRC log started Mon Dec 20 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1220 -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn91.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn6.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-204.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn6.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn31.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf15.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (Read error to smokie[zaalf15.twi.tudelft.nl]: Connection reset by peer) -:- Kaufmann [kaufmann@amadeus.fluid.impa.br] has joined #tunes FOO! 04:00am bar! ah, I knew /someone/ had to be paying attention :) not always true but anyway what's new? GOD, it's good to be working at a nice place for a change heh lord knows, i don't where do you work? * Kaufmann/#tunes has a Scientific Initiation scholarship at the Institute for Pure and Applied Mathematics, Rio de Janeiro. oh cool `finger kaufmann@impa.br` sorry, not in the habit of touching people ;) but I'm quite user-friendly! :) * water/#tunes is attempting to reset his pda which locked ua game of DoomCE s/ua/during DoomCE?!? Wow, that's fresh yeah, and it runs nice and smoothly amazing... not to mention being free you've got a Cassiopeia, right? yeah e-100 electronics prices in Brazil are extorsively high the only reason i put up with wince tariffs or something? cell phones are an exception, thanks to the current 'everybody's got one craze' urgh cell phones are an exception, thanks to the current 'everybody's got one' craze try buying stuff on the net? that's more like it :) water, import taxes nonetheless ah... the 'catch-all' tariff 04:10am water, tried installng one of the micro-Linuces? micro-linuxes? as in? there are plenty www.linuxce.org whoa hmm squeak'd have to be ported to it for me to cross over, i think but i'll try anything once heck, port it yourself (starting from the regular Linux version) hmm oh man does gcc target mips r4300? "Netscape Communicator: it sucks, but it sucks exactly the same in three dozen different platforms!" heh lemme see someone told me the other day (erroneously) that you had to replace the rom to switch oses on a wince device depends on the specific device, of course. i suppose hmm... no touch-interfacing implemented yet no wait wrong on that count.. i read an out-of-date page found this: http://www.gnu.org/software/gcc/onlinedocs/gcc_3.html#SEC51 04:20am well, it obviously has the code-generation for mips built-in yeah eek... roughly 12mb storage+6mb ram for any useful work that's a tight fit even on mine what? RAM-wise? yeah maybe i can offload the os and stuff into the back-up card until someone offers a rom mo' RAM, babee :) gadzooks! how much is an 8-meg going for these days? they re-compiled gcc on the casio itself! $400 i think * Kaufmann/#tunes promptly adds "gadzook!" to his dictionary of interjections maybe $300 since it's close to xmas heh ahh, Apple Day apple day? Old Isaac's birthday ah So I watched open TV last night, after a two-year cable-only sabbatical how did it feel? (not so strange since most of the crap that Americans get on open channels only plays here on cable) well, Brian, it felt... dirty. heh 04:30am and the ads... good god, the countless crappy Christmas 30-second ads abi: BYOK is Build Your Own Kernel, as opposed to Bring Your Own Kernel LOL that's a very useful piece of information * water/#tunes imagines a byok party * Kaufmann/#tunes feels nausea at the thought... half a million Linux geeks compiling 2.3 series kernels heh that reminds me, i'm still running 2.0.34 heh that's nothing, I'm still running SunOS 5.6 yikes yeah pain and suffering, my friend... pain and suffering i think we have a few of those units at work with CDE 1.2, to boot heh they have cde, i haven't checked the version, though really, my little SPARCstation LX isn't so bad :) hmm.. booting linux on my handheld will be tricky I've been thinking of taking one of these infobots and hacking it to support context "context"? how? 04:40am instead of just serving as a glorified database client, the bot would actually look at the data fed to it, and would use it to build a semantic network as in looking for infrequently-used words in the last 20 lines? hm so when I ask for "assembly", it not only gets me the "assembly" record, but also tells me about machine code, different processors, etc., gives me "Related Topics", etc. have fun! (said the self-proclaimed author of the arrow prototype) LOL btw, are you fammiliar with model theory at all? in a formal sense? yeah, kinda well, no i'm trying to build the same idea in arrow in order to complete the vm spec what idea? idea is that there's a mutually available spec for the data structures passed around that maintains semantic content across nodes * water/#tunes adds "LinuxCE.org" to his bookmarks ROTFL uhh abi forget idea water: I forgot idea -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (smkl has no reason) the idea of being able to construct an interpretive structure and then interpret info according to that structure context like logical truth according to a model vs. absolute truth yeah, in a sense I see what you mean brb context seems more like a more specific differentiation of model k back any thoughts? any literature on the subject? online, I mean model theory itself? * water/#tunes web-searches anything to clarify i don't think formal math pages usually "clarify" LOL hrrrm http://www-mgi.informatik.rwth-aachen.de/FMT/ formal model theory homepage 04:50am s/formal/finite how would you do this in an Arrow system? still working that out. functions and operators would be graphs, of course constants, i'm not sure variables are functions, but at another level ignore that FMT page oh, NOW you tell me -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes sorry, there's a tutorial page i'm looking for j/k how are variables functions? functions from the set of context symbols to values ah i.e. a set of bindings so what differentiates a constant from a variable in that sense? hmm. a meta-contextual constriant? constriant? heh. constraint i really hate the ACM they advertise great papers, but require a membership fee that's more than i can reasonably afford do you have membership? in other words, there's nothing intrinsic (sp?) about a constant that makes it fundamentally different from a variable or any function? water, in the ACM? acm: yeah constant: not really ontological relativism? i guess ontological relativism is the idea that "what is" is relative whee http://www.acm.org/pubs/toc/Abstracts/jacm/147524.html thanks, abi no problem Kaufmann :) that paper i just gave a link for would be a great resource I now understand the Tao cool :) seriously, I finally kind of get it not the Tao Arrow oh ok 05:00am * water/#tunes tries in vain to find good online MT resources well, it (the abstract) looks good... but no online version cheapskates http://www.qucis.queensu.ca/home/dalamb/courses/422/tmintro/tmintro.html that one looks pretty good and programming-applicable, too so, what would determine that, as far as another function is concerned, this given graph represents a constant, and not a variable? Where does the constraint go? good question :) the meta-model, i suppose, but i hate that concept so the meta-model would somehow hold a representation of the graph that constitutes the constant and associate it with another graph that represents the constraint? or something of the sort? yeah, but don't hold me to that * Kaufmann/#tunes grabs Brian by the ankle the central point hinges on how to specify the graph i.e. i need a framework allowing me to express my graphs to a fine enough detail good god, it took half an hour and five reloads for this damn page to load correctly without making the framework too complex to model itself which page was that? when you talk about expressing a graph, what do you mean? water, some sub-page of opengl.org spcifying the contents of a graph precisely oh brb 05:10am back * water/#tunes refines the search to "abstract model theory" a rareer subject, but more useful to the cs person I'm learning OpenGL (we do a lot of modeling here), but it's awfully low-level for everyday hacking s/rareer/rarer yes, it is but then, most gl's are far too low-level so I'm looking for a nice high-level library on top of OpenGL maybe a Perl binding or something of the sort PerlGL? nice I just might hack one up myself mmm... SelfGL * water/#tunes slaps himself heh damn it! i need to stop that fantasizing! Morphic? yeah, morphic is ok i work with the smalltalk version, which is a half-hack I don't quite remember what it /is/, though... seems to have more to do with UI in a general sense, no? yeah, it's a direct-manipulation interface to programming objects the object on the screen IS the object in the store right you essentially get a dialog box which equals the object's programming protocol pretty nifty unfortunately, the smalltalk version needs work (particularly with halos) they're apparently going to merge ThingLab with it so that you can program physical behaviors into morphs and vice-versa 05:20am ThingLab? yeah, developed in the early 80's to give a simple programming interface for making objects act according to physics constraints as I thought I found a set of Perl bindings it's a pretty cool idea, too but they're just one-to-one bindings water, got an URL? for what? oh, amt not yet no, for ThingLab hmm i have an overview of it will do http://www.2share.com/thinglab/ThingLab%20-%20index.html BTW, I'm almost completing the Code Hell project Code Hell? 05:30am It's a compendium on the subject of code obfuscation techniques. ahh, now i rmember i really need to get in contact with UWash CS department why's that? because they're nearby, and they have a lot of resources, and they might be interested in arrow I recall you having a problem with "mainstream" CS researchers yeah, i do nu? i don't know how it will work out, but i definitely need some kind of help MAN, I'm hungry... I'm gonna go grab a byte brb obviously with raw coding, but more so with getting my research done effectively k -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (brb) 05:40am -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes wb 05:50am hello what's new? nothing (except that latest bX is unbelievably buggy) heh -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann back k smkl, bX? bitchx thought so what release? 1.0c13 hrrm mine says 75p3 that's some older version of course the "1.0" version always introduces bugs :P ah well 06:00am cool i found a workaround heh. i just realized that "error 404" counts for jargon abi jargon? it has been said that jargon is at http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/The-Jargon-Lexicon-framed.html yep. it's there * Kaufmann/#tunes thinks about MIND 06:10am abi, MIND Is Not Delphi, Kaufmann's project for a modular IDE/project management system in Perl. blasted hell I've figured out a rather nice capability system for controlling access -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lcn78.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes la de da (just idling how nice hey yoo :) 06:20am ... out there in the cold, getting lonely, getting old, can you feel me? cool song yep darn it, i still have that jargon window open and am still looking up entries in it so? heh so, it's addictive ah i even found "scram switch" in it Damn water, me too =| i've been doing that since 7-ish this morning what time is it there now? 8:20 =) geez Well, I'm coding at the same time. * water/#tunes closes the window and continues on his quest to find an online _grokkable_ intro to model theory model theory? yeah Elaborate? hmm... the theory of theories :) e.g. finite model theory, abstract model theory, ... Gee. yeah, not exactly light reading fun, tho uh sure hmm... abi has a useful link, iirc abi: mice? mice is model-integrated computing environment at http://www.isis.vanderbilt.edu/research/edcs/edcs.html it's a fairly lame implementation, but still interesting oh yeah, it also uses multi-graph's to model it's domain network :) 06:30am (personal favoritte feature, of course) of course it's almost as useful as my ontology graph idea, except that my graphs will allow reflective use of inter-domain links heh oh boy hm? nuthin' 06:40am hum. Gakuk. water: hiya. kaufie: still polluting /. ? Yablutsk! Fare, yeah push @interjections, "Yablutsk!"; heh fare: know any good online resources for abstract model theory? or abstract modelling in programming? * yoo/#Tunes pities poor slashdot editors Mean old kaufie trying to force a clue into their tiny little brains =( hmm. abstract interp counts where at? LOL yoo 06:50am UNIX-heads, the lot o' them not really not really what? too many of the /. screaming kids is not really UNIX-heads.. they're screaming kids.. just like the amiga-kids a few years back.. screaming kids I would trust aUNIX-head to be able to do something, but I can't extend that to the /. screaming kids makes sense with their eye-candy window managers and all :) a /. screaming kid thinks that perl is cool, that ESR is really cool and now even rich, and that Linux rocks because it is not Microsoft ...but Perl /is/ cool! to put it simple; perl sucks, ESR is a rich loser and Linux is cool because it's free I wish it were /dead/ cool. 07:00am heh I wouldn't be so harsh on Raymond, tho kaufie: he has done some good but he lost contact with the planet a long time ago oh well.. need a shower afk lost contact with the planet? brb too damn thee xemacs betas are buggy 07:10am Fare still here? sami: somehow Fare: could you op the bot on ircnet? 07:30am except that ircnet splitted again :) * yoo/#Tunes mumbles about silly mathematics what's silly about mathematics? :) well silly trig stuff yeah, trig is pretty silly 07:40am Vertices of eye: 0.000000,0.000000 10.000000,-10.000000 10.000000,10.000000 yay finally my mathz came out with nice even numbers like they wuz spo'zed to =) * yoo/#Tunes does a little dance abi seen beholder? beholder was last seen on IRC 1 days, 15 hours, 18 minutes and 1 seconds ago, saying: I'll be right back [Sat Dec 18 16:30:02 1999] 07:50am -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Read error to yoo[user-38lcn78.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) back aaaaaaaah, FINALLY some Real Man's work! 08:00am what's that? math hacking! no more of that silly CORBA nonsense! really? doing what? oh yeah, your new job -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lcn6b.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes okie my maths aren't werkin so well again yoo: #math on efnet or udnernet s/udnernet/undernet heh nah its not hard stuff just with lots of numbers and stuff 08:10am oh so why bother us? :) I'm just rambling =) oh boy, it feels good to be hacking again Kaufie: CORBA? i guess CORBA is nice when you don't have time to hack proprietary protocols and when you want to interface with Java heh uh? for Java, here's RMI. (well, ok, that's for Java<->Java). la de da yeah, CORBA -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf19.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes 08:20am corBAH Kaufie: what did you do with it? CORBA's a buzzword Oh hey look at me I used CORBA! bzzzz bzzzzz CORBA -- client-server -- three-tier architecture -- Object-Oriented -- Industry-Standard -- Windows NT -- Java -- GUI Fare, I work at the Fluid Dynamics lab; we do simulation software for research. But there's only X people in the world who do research on fluid dynamics, and they decided it'd be a good idea to add remote collaboration features to the software good Kaufie: know anything about multilingual meta-HTML tools? 08:30am such as? damn mulitilingual people....+)