IRC log started Mon Nov  1 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1101
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-:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.141.26.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<lar1> Anyone happen to know any good sites for Roman information?
12:30am
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<air> hey
<air> brix is back online
<lar1> Cool cool
<air> 3 more major kernel overhauls to go but they are for speed improvements and wont affect anything
<lar1> One down 3 to go :)
<air> so im not gonna do em right away, ill work on the drivers
<lar1> Good idea
<lar1> Functionallity first
<air> did u get yre mail?
<air> i released a bug fix for bfe tonight
<lar1> Oh, no I didn't.  Cool Cool
<lar1> Ah, here it is
<air> well im off to bed
<air> cya
<lar1> later
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12:50am
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<hcf> hey water
<water> hey
<hcf> hows it flowing?
<water> heh.
<water> finally moving to seattle today
<water> and trying to re-write the specs and add to them
<hcf> mving to a better environment?
<water> yeah, close to uwash and other good areas
<water> unfortunately, commuting will be hell
<water> but that can be dealt with
11:00am
<water> lol... wolfenstein2000
11:10am
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<water> hmm... M$ stock fraud
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<thumper> Hey, quick question on redhat??
<water> k
<water> although #redhat or #linpeople or #linuxhelp might be better
<thumper> do they recommend NTP ???
<thumper> rgrgr
<water> ntp?
<thumper> network time protocol
<water> dunno
<thumper> thanks.....have a good one...
<water> you too
<hcf> what a good use of ur time
<water> good point
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11:20am
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<Ras_Kass> hey whats up people
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11:50am
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!ChanServ:*! irq used GETPASS on channel #suse
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<lar1> Hey
02:00pm
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<Fare> does anyone know how to use hdparm to do hotplug of IDE drives?
<Fare> (unmounted ones, of course)
<Fare> (oops, wrong channel)
<hcf> duh
<Fare> hcf!
* Fare/#Tunes admits being doing unspeakable things with his computer
02:40pm
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<hcf> hi iepos
<iepos> hi
<Fare> lo
<iepos> greetings
<iepos> what's up, fare? whatever happened to lambdaND ?
<Fare> renamed into rndlc
<Fare> and has to be split and rewritten
<Fare> into rnd, ndlc and lcr
<iepos> oh...
03:20pm
<iepos> Reflective Non-Determininistic Lambda Calculus ?
<Fare> see by yourself in http://tunes.org/~fare/tmp
<iepos> ok
<iepos> (!!!)
<iepos> postscript
<iepos> heh heh
<Fare> the source is available by cvsweb...
<iepos> hmm... i've never used cvsweb...
<Fare> http://cvs.tunes.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb
<iepos> okay....
<iepos> hmm... where? under /fare/fare somewhere?
<iepos> oh i found it
<iepos> lambdas are so much fun
<Fare> also directly in file://bespin/~fare/fare/
03:30pm
<iepos> all right... thanks...
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03:40pm
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<ultos> whirred
<ultos> Fare, art thou here?
<ultos> Or, be there any good lisp programmers here?
<ultos> I'm having speed concerns with cons...
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<ultos> halt an catch fire, do you know lisp well?
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<hcf_> no
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<ultos> I'm a bad boy =(
<ultos> I'm consing =(
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03:50pm
<ultos> hcf,will you do me a favor?
<hcf> depends
<ultos> telnet to me port 1234
<ultos> 'nick hcf' will set your name to hcf, then use 'say' to say stuff
<hcf> eek, a lispmud
<hcf> abi: retro?
<abi> retro is tcn's Forth OS project at http://tunes.org/~tcn/retro/
<ultos> ack
<ultos> no
<ultos> not looking for a forth os =)
<hcf> whats the point of a 100% lisp or forth mud if its not runner on a 100% lisp or forth os?
04:00pm
<ultos> heh
<ultos> bbl
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04:10pm
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<air> Tril: i got spammed from bespin
05:40pm
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* rares/#tunes boo
* air/#tunes BOO!!!
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<carlito> abi you there?
<abi> i haven't a clue, carlito
<carlito> thanks
<carlito> how did you know?
<carlito> what's the command for that?
<carlito> abi?
<abi> carlito?
<carlito> what is the command to see the last time a user was on
<carlito> hmmm
<carlito> abi: have you seen ruiner, and if you could, whats the command to see when the last time he was on
<abi> i don't know, carlito
<rares> type /.whowas
<rares> or /whowas nick even
<carlito> abi: hey, what type of computer are you using?
<abi> carlito: i don't know
<carlito> abi: what's the weather like where you are at?
<abi> wish i knew, carlito
<rares> umm methinks abi is away
<carlito> yeah
<carlito> thanks rares
<carlito> ok
06:00pm
<carlito> rares: I still don't know how to tell the last time he was on
<rares> i think the command tells you that too
<carlito> ok...then help.  ruiner is who I'm looking for
<carlito> or "_ruiner_
<carlito> er..."_ruiner_"
<rares> well you can't if he was invisible
<carlito> he wasn't invis
<rares> *** [JonathanV] (sehnsucht@209.184.71.126) : sehnsucht
<rares> *** [JonathanV] bear.openprojects.net :Mon Nov  1 18:49:32 1999
<rares> *** JonathanV :End of WHOWAS
<rares> that's what it would look like
<carlito> hmmm
<carlito> thanks
<rares> wwhere does xchat keep channel bookmarks
06:10pm
<hcf> abi: seen _ruiner_
<abi> _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 7 days, 1 hours, 13 minutes and 22 seconds ago, saying: about? [Mon Oct 25 18:00:46 1999]
<carlito> hey, how did you that
<carlito> abi: PLEASE TELL
<carlito> *whine*   please
<rares> it's a script
<rares> or built in
<rares> ccarlito seen rares
06:20pm
<rares> carlito: seen rares
<rares> abi: seen rares
<abi> rares was last seen on IRC 0 seconds ago, saying: abi: seen rares [Mon Nov  1 18:20:27 1999]
<carlito> cool, thank you so much
<carlito> seen ruiner
<carlito> oops
<carlito> er
<carlito> ruiner: seen carlito
<carlito> carlito: seen ruiner
<carlito> er
<carlito> dang it
<carlito> _ruiner_: seen carlito
<rares> abi: seen _ruiner_
<abi> _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 7 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes and 22 seconds ago, saying: about? [Mon Oct 25 18:00:46 1999]
<carlito> carlito: seen _ruiner_
<carlito> hmmm
<carlito> abi: seen _ruiner_
<abi> _ruiner_ was last seen on IRC 7 days, 1 hours, 24 minutes and 50 seconds ago, saying: about? [Mon Oct 25 18:00:46 1999]
<carlito> aha!
<carlito> thank you all very much
<carlito> I can now leave you all in peace
<carlito> so you can talk about my stupidity
<carlito> bye all
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<rares> blah blah blah blah
<air> wow i got a program as spam
<air> what kinda moron runs a program they get from a complete stranger
06:30pm
<rares> 99.44 percent of the world
06:40pm
<eihrul> doh
06:50pm
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<air> eihrul: u get emk done yet?
<eihrul> i just finished designing it
07:20pm
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<air> when are u gonna start coding it?
<eihrul> i just started tonight
<air> can u far return into a callgate?
07:30pm
<eihrul> why the hell would you want to do that?
<eihrul> eh?
<air> cuz
<eihrul> i mean, in theory, it could work
<eihrul> but just tell me why :)
<air> i havent removed the ring0/3 barrier yet so im still usign callgates for syscalls
<air> but i did remove the die syscall so threads die by doing a retf
<air> if the thread was called directly by another thread then it returns to the caller thread
<air> but if it was forked then it returns to the internal die function in the kernel
<air> but u cant just return to a dpl0 segment 
07:40pm
<eihrul> you said you removed the barrier :)
<air> no im going to remove it
<air> but i have to add code to load a kernel stack to all syscalls which i dont wanna do right now
<air> the only thing it will change is the speed of the OS
<air> so its not that important right now
<air> hmm its not working
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<air> great, now i get to remove the stinking barrier now
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<air> hmmm yer nick is linus and yer username is andy :)
07:50pm
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<lar1> Hey
<eihrul> maybe its his middle name?
08:00pm
<Linus_> lol
<Linus_> lol
<Linus_> i love the title
* lar1/#tunes reads up on the logs and grins
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<lar1> air:  Why doesn't bochs list the dr4/5 registers??
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<lar1> (so says yer bfe page)
<air> thats why
<lar1> Ah so
<lar1> air:  Where did all your BRiX info go?
<air> its still there
08:10pm
<air> just not linked on that page
<air> some of it was outdated and i didnt want ppl getting wrong info
<lar1> Did you fix it so they aren't sending the php soucre?
<air> only the links on the bottom half did that
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<air> all the links that worked had outdated info
<lar1> Hcf!  Hey
<air> i need to figure out a way to return to a callgate
<lar1> air:  Doh!  I need the info on your OFS... I intend to implemnt that in the not to distant future
<eihrul> why do you want to return?
<eihrul> why not just call into the kernel?
<lar1> Is the only differnece between a call gate and a softare intrupt is a call gate changes premissions?
<eihrul> no....
<eihrul> A) one uses GDT, one uses IDT
<eihrul> B) one doesn't push EFLAGS, one does
<eihrul> C) one doesn't disable interrupts at all, one can disable interrupts
<eihrul> D) one's a bit faster than the other :)
<air> eihrul: didnt u read what i said above?
<eihrul> E) 7 bytes to encode a call to call gate, 2 bytes to encode call to interrupt 
<eihrul> air: i still don't see why :)
<air> a method can be started one of two ways: it can be forked as a kernel thread or it can be call'd by another method
<lar1> Call gates use the GDT?  Oh crap
<eihrul> or the LDT...
<eihrul> depending on whatcha wanna use
<air> the method doesnt know how it was started and ret works perfectly to return to either the kernel so it can destroy the thread or return to the caller method
<eihrul> so record how it started
<air> eihrul: that takes more cycles 
<lar1> eihrul: call gate is a bit faster?
<air> eihrul: and more code
<air> lar1: yes
<eihrul> air: your problem :)
<eihrul> lar1: yes
<eihrul> lar1: call gates do a lot less
08:20pm
<air> lar1: go with a safe language and just use a single address space with no ring barrier then u dont need call/int gates
<lar1> I was thinking about ditching the ring barrier
<lar1> I was just going to slap the kernel services in some sw int
<air> i will have a table of pointers to kernel syscalls
<lar1> Isn't the overhead the same?
<air> and methods will just use 'call dword [syscall_table+4*syscall]'
<air> it takes like 4 cycles
<air> instead of 44 for a callgate and 48 for an intgate
<lar1> It takes 48 for a sw int?!!?
<air> ya
<air> u will need to load a kernel stack tho, so it will take a couple more cycles
<lar1> Then why do programs do ints if  they can just do call dword [IDT+4*interupt]?
<Fare> air: unhappily, paging makes ring barriers necessary
<Fare> although this can be restricted to just the bare minimum
<air> Fare: why?
<Fare> air: for instance, paging the stack means paging interrupts are done on another stack, hence another ring (well, ok, could be done with a task gate)
<air> what??
<Fare> also, paging doesn't work the same way in ring 0 as in other rings
<lar1> Fare:  Say what?
<Fare> anyway, even then, you only need switch ring at interrupts, at which point its cost is 0
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<Fare> (marginal cost)
<air> u dont need rings at all
<Fare> on a 386, you do
<air> why?
<Fare> on a 486+, the ring 0 paging permission bug is fixed, I think
<air> when u only have ring 0 u just set page permissions to supervisor
08:30pm
<air> besides brix requires a 486 now
<lar1> The 386 was enh
<lar1> BBL (perhaps)
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (RavenOS -- :))
<Fare> enh?
* Fare/#Tunes won't buy a computer w/o IDE racks anymore
08:40pm
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<lar1> Back :)
08:50pm
<eihrul> Fare: "paging permission bug"?
<eihrul> describe please :)
09:00pm
<eihrul> air: hey?
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<lar1> air:  Does bespin have the bochs font installed?
<air> no
<lar1> air:  So I would need Tril to install it before I could run bochs there?
<air> eihrul: hey what?
<air> lar1: have u ever done any remote X serving?
<lar1> air:  No...
09:10pm
<air> its slow
<lar1> Too slow to beable to do work?
<eihrul> air: what paging permission bug is fare talking about?
<air> probably
<air> eihrul: no idea
<lar1> air:  Port BFE to win32
* lar1/#tunes ducks
<lar1> Eww this article didn't translate from french well
<lar1> "Since the processors did not cross the bar of the 100 MHz, everyone does not have any more but one digit at the head... Giga Hertz!"
<eihrul> babelfish?
<lar1> I don't know... I suppose I could run the french article through and see if it prodouces the same output
<air> crap, the stinkin pentium manual says that only call can be used with a callgate
09:20pm
<lar1> What chip does a 'real unix workstation' run?
09:30pm
<air> x86 :)
<lar1> Heh
<lar1> I never thouight that Unix was tied to a certian chip... but a lot of ravonus people on /. seem to think otherwise
09:40pm
<air> hmm i need to find a /. ticker so i remember to read it everyday
<lar1> write one :)
<air> heh
<air> gnome has one for its panel, but i dumped gnome and its stupid panelk
<air> and the stupid ticker was sucking 9meg of ram
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09:50pm
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<air> eihrul: i got my ret to callgate to work
<air> eihrul: instead of callgate:0 i did user_cs:offset_of_die and the first instruction is a call to a callgate to the next instruction in die
10:10pm
<eihrul> hmm
<eihrul> how ironic that only a *call* gate can be used with a call :)
<eihrul> er rather only with a call
<air> well its dumb that u cant use ret
<air> u can jmp to a callgate if the ring doesnt change
10:20pm
<eihrul> well
<eihrul> as i suggested, that's probably why they didn't call them return gates 
10:30pm
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!NickServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on linus
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1102
IRC log ended Tue Nov  2 00:00:02 1999