IRC log started Wed Aug 4 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0804
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp04.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp04.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us814.javanet.com])
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp04.lvdi.net])
!ChanServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on channel #e.themes
-:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lucas.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org])
-:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success
-:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about
-:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from carter.openprojects.net)
-:- Your host is carter.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from carter.openprojects.net)
-:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from carter.openprojects.net)
-:- carter.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv
-:- [local users on irc(54)] 15%
-:- [global users on irc(149)] 41%
-:- [invisible users on irc(214)] 59%
-:- [ircops on irc(15)] 4%
-:- [total users on irc(363)]
-:- [unknown connections(0)]
-:- [total servers on irc(33)] (avg. 11 users per server)
-:- [total channels created(115)] (avg. 3 users per channel)
!carter.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 77 (76 clients)
!carter.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
-:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES
-:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES
-:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org "
-:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
-:- Topic for #TUNES: Reflective Computing System
-:- topic set by Fare [Mon Aug 2 09:40:37 1999]
-:- [Users(#Tunes:5)]
[ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ Mr_Wrong ] [ Plundis ] [@Tril ]
-:- Channel #Tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.120 secs!!
-:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us107.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
abi: urlmon is at http://source.syr.edu/~jdimpson/urlmon/
08:10am
-:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes
-:- ElGato [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
hoy ElGato
09:40am
hello
how are ou?
you rather
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
09:50am
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us107.javanet.com])
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us305.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (ElGato has no reason)
-:- Netjoined: bear.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net
-:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes
* Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 18:07:00 1999
-:- Roscine_ [rosc@gnzl-as8-38.eatel.net] has joined #tunes
-:- Roscine_ [rosc@gnzl-as8-38.eatel.net] has left #tunes []
-:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [10:50am]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net
-:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #Tunes
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us305.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- smkl [sami@MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi])
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- smkl [sami@MLXXVII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes
-:- sham_ [sr@phila-dialup168.nni.com] has joined #tunes
-:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
-:- ElGato [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
i have a question about ersistance; could someone help me out?
persistance rather
maybe
btw, never ask to ask. its damn annoying
do persistant systems have a dedicated partition like swap spaces?
if u want
its not needed tho
btw, i got a microphone
but im currently downloading something else
so i can't get roger wilco right n0w
in a persistant system everything is auto saved so if u need space u can just mark the pages as not present and then load another object into its space
i see
in a vm system u need to write the page out to disk and then load something new into memory
so persistence can be faster
i'd think with enough memory it would slow things down
unless the system has been really loaded down and hasnt had time to save alot of stuff
plus in a vm system u end up saving code to swap and then loading it back in, in persistence code never changes so it is never saved back to disk
02:40pm
* liar/#tunes is GONE ( gone )
sure you are
blarg
bbl
02:50pm
* ElGato/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On]
y0 sham
what's with the new nick?
nothing really
i just like "sham/shamino" better
it's from a really good RPG
uh huh
better than Fallout i might add ;)
:P
im gonna go do some stuff now
later
03:20pm
-:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (Read error to Mr_Wrong[adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: EOF from client)
"Well, I'm dating again, which is exciting cause I'm married"
03:30pm
ElGato did you ever date someone?
uh yeah sorta
03:40pm
so did you get your new computer?
yeah
into the linux hacking scene now? :)
i still need to get a linux distro though
* ElGato/#tunes wants to go play rb6 now
bubye
rainbow 6?
uh huh
you're a warez leecher now aren't you
if you call mp3's and cd burning warez, i guess so
er
burning cds
heh burning warez
hah
well playing games is probably more fun than coding for you
nah
it's just well i haven't had a great week
i've been morning the death of my dearest cat
:(
heh
you're a sentimental person
elgato have you tried BeOS?
hah
no
nor will i probably ever
BeOS is for the best, windows is for the rest
=)
i guess i'll just hyave to help change that then won't i?
root@nebb:~# telnet 209-68-229-44.dialup.cust.tfb.com
Connected to 209.68.229.44
hmm?
BeOS R4.5
login:
wtf???
03:50pm
ehheeh
you must be running BeOS :)
yeah i lied
im a l33t be hacker
infact i wrote the majority of the kernel
you got me
:\
hehe
-:- sham_ [sr@phila-dialup168.nni.com] has left #tunes []
04:00pm
-:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (Ping timeout for liar[p0wer.qzx.com])
-:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
heh
im sucking in online chess
05:00pm
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ....)
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
anyone know where i can find information of various page allocation schemes?
no. ask on os-help?
tried every search engine
05:30pm
eihrul: in this channel
and turns up either junk or references to the linux page allocator, which i've already looked at
maybe look for how BSD's do it
i'm looking for more of descriptions of various algorithms
so i can evaluate things before i just start implementing it
i'm sure someone knows but not me, like i said you should post to os-help@tunes.org
05:40pm
scared :) everyone gets flamed out the wazoo there
ignore Fare
or you can just make one up, then someone will undoubtably suggest a better one once your system becomes known.
it's more of a personal project
try liar
oh
my
three is a rather large netsplit on efnet
s/three/there
05:50pm
-:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (ElGato has no reason)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us337.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- sham_ [sr@phila-dialup234.nni.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org])
-:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes
* Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 18:07:00 1999
-:- SignOff sham_: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff Crimson: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Crimson[chaosdev.org])
-:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Plundis[chaosdev.org])
-:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes
* Plundis/#tunes is gone. Gone since Tue Aug 3 18:38:00 1999
-:- Crimson [crimson@chaosdev.org] has joined #tunes
* Crimson/#tunes is gone. Gone since Wed Aug 4 18:07:00 1999
-:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from sterling.openprojects.net [07:54pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com]
-:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com sterling.openprojects.net
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us337.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #Tunes
-:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [08:11pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net
-:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us337.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- Plundis [plundis@chaosdev.org] has joined #Tunes
-:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes
-:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by irc.linux.com
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp74.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us337.javanet.com])
-:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes
-:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes
people hi
lo
10:30pm
hey eihrul :)
am finally starting to implement kernel some
your own? cool
hope you're not making Yet Another Bootloader or Yet Another MicroKernel :)
nope, going to use grub
but i am making YAMK :)
neat program (grub that is). i dislike the multiboot standard; quite short-sighted and not safe; but grub is good.
hehe.. why a microkernel?
just because it's a good way to learn about the hardware
and to broaden my programming horizons in general :)
no.. i mean - why a microkernel and not another organisation of system :)
i certainly am not going to tell you not to toy with system code :)
simply because the microkernel design is cleaner
10:40pm
i don't know.. all "2nd generation" ones if any, moved back half of the things that were in servers, back into the kernel, because message passing is slow :)
since all the parts of the system are decoupled, it's very easy to replace them... and it just seems the more OO way to go :)
i'm not going for speed here
so having 3 calling conventions (server->kernel, server->server, server->network) is not what i'd call clean :-)
since i'm not even planning on making this a serious OS
i just want to get something half useable to toy with, and that's it :)
well, it can be decoupled even if they aren't all processes in their own memory space, like.. components :-)
yeah.. i'm not telling you to do any other way, i'm just curious :)
if not a microkernel, what else is there?
we already have a million monolithic systems :)
well, "microkernel" to me, means a small monolithic kernel and then a lot of servers, each in its own address space, gravitating around it
you can seperate components of your system without always forcibly using different address space, or even control threads, for them, when not needed. or let the user decide just policies :)
yep... suppose you could
but the microkernel is conceptually easier to learn with :)
oh, i'm not saying you have to change your mind :)
maybe i'll try a pseudo-monolithic system next time around, but microkernel just seemed easier for me
because it's a good way to avoid writing driver subsystems :)
yeah.. i understand :) do it the way you like. i'm just curious about your motivation of writing an uK rather than something else :)
well, you'll still have to write a few, unless you reuse L4, mach or chaos servers
well, there's not much chaos servers
true.. just the basics, but it can be timesaving for tests :)
since i still have yet to finish my IPC implementation in chaos :)
-:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (leaving)
mach servers are pretty pathetic
i was thinking of maybe trying to recycle some code from the Hurd
L4 servers are nice i guess, but L4 itself is quite hairy although very fast :)
yeah.. the hurd is based on mach
the interface to L4 is HORRID
well, GNU Mach(tm)(r)(c)
yeah, i know. it's designed to be fast, but only for venusians :)
cool functionality, but horrible horrible ways to express it :)
'zactly :)
looks like code that has been factored into an API _afterwards_, rather than before implementation.
you could look at it that way...
because from the implementation notes at the back, i think thtat's what actually happened!
hehe.. i didn't read the implementation notes. it's just how it looked to me
ah well, i guess writing is rewriting, until we have a system like Tunes :-)
they concatenated many functions into the ones that are there now like thread_switch, task_new
er thread_ex_regs i mean :)
i_don't_like_underscores_in_function_names() :)
10:50pm
then again, iDontLikeWeirdCapitalizationSchemes
it's like hungarian notation gone wrong
if hungarian notation can actually go worse
hehe.. i don't like hungarian notation either. well, m$ uses it, and you see how reliable their code is
if not capitalization, underscores, or hungarian, what else is there?
pictographs?
I use ThisIsAFunction(), thisIsAVariable, THIS_IS_A_DEFINE, this_is_a_typedef. Lets you see quickly what you're manipulating. but it's just me :)
lol.. that too.
i use underscores for function names, and capitalization for variables, all capitalization for macros
ah well, as long as you have a convention of sorts
makes variables and functions way more discernable
after so many years of coding in both, i kind of made a compromise :)
we're seeing people today (at my company that is) that are creating a company aimed at producing robots like the AIBO, that want to use clementine. that could be really neat.
or either, i should say
yeah, as long as you stick to a convention :)
would be fun to have one of those for home use
i know.. the 6 guys creating the company are all PhD's in robotics, microelectronics, maths and computing. I think they can succeed :) And that's such a neat vehicle for the OS :-)
"Even my dog uses Clementine!"
* eihrul/#tunes cackles.
lol.. pretty much
it'd just be cool to have a robot dog in the entry hall at suntech ;)
if you could just hook up the correct equipment
you could sort of reverse potty train the thing :)
11:00pm
haha.. um, if they make a robot dog for us, i'd rather just have it sit around and play, than go potty :)
so are you planning on making a better/different uK, or just write one for learning?
rather simple
it's hard to make a better/different microkernel anyway
i don't know.. i'm not a big supported of microkernels, but L4 shown the way of speed :) but yeah i understand. do you plan on making a booting system, ie. enough functionality to start a shell and some programs?
yeah... make just enough to run some multiboot servers
you can't go that much more extreme than L4
you can't go that much more bloated than mach
and there's a lot of microkernels already in the grey area
so i can only at this point just make a clone of features i like from others :)
hehe.. true. so you're planning on porting/writing a simple shell and starting some command-line programs?
maybe a small vga server
ala X11, but using messages
and perhaps a RAM fs server
no physical fs tho?
11:10pm
i could try i guess
but that's simply a luxury :)
mm.. well, that's kind of useful for storing information ;)
what did you write so far?
just some memory management things so far and planned out a small kernel api
and mostly what i planned to implement in chaos, but just adapted for my stuff
ahh.. IPC and stuff? i saw you implemented that for them, even if i still can't get anything out of their anoncvs
* eihrul/#tunes has CVS write. :P
i don't have cvs write either; i can't even _read_ :)
could send you tarballs of my latest tree if you want
if you want to, sure, that'd be nice :)
ta :)
11:20pm
ugh
why do i get a million errors assembling after i change a couple lines of code
ran the code through a C compiler? *duck*
whoa, someone died of caffeine overdose :)
that could be me. i had two coffees and i've been up for 1 hour
person in question took a little under 90 caffeine pills
man i went to this mcdonalds out in some hicksville today and got a super sized meal
the stinking frys could feed a huge family
liar: "super truckdriver special" ?
they charge you enough for them
you better damn well get a lot of them
i avoid mcdonalds or any fast food for that matter, like the plague.
the fry container was 9" tall
and had frys spilling out
grease dripping out the bottom too? :)
eihrul: even I am not that insane (re: caffeine pills)
and they charge the same price as the city mcdonalds charge
well, it was a community college student... who knows
and the drink was like 100oz
* eihrul/#tunes has bad memories of a 36 ounce slurpee.
cannot imagine how long you'd be waiting in the bathroom with such a beast
heh
maybe hicksville doesnt charge much for the land so mcdonalds can serve more
but they should tell city ppl not to buy super sized crap
that's what you get for not heeding the commercials
ah crap i woulda had brix bootin tonight if i hadnt gone and changed the data structures for events and semaphores
liar: you were supposed to send me an image :P
11:30pm
core: oh was i suppose to work on brix? :)
liar: i don't know, in "exchanging images" i understood that i gave you one like i did, and then you'll give me one :-)
ya u will get one
as soon as i update all the semaphore and event code to the new data structure
hope so, the only one i have doesn't make it easy to know how much of brix is working, as it just displays one char to the screen :P
liar: ok.. whenever that is :)
hey 636, or whatever it is, displays more than one char
it says "welcome something"
well, the interaction with the user is still a little limited :-)
8 little bits for man, 1 giant character for mankind!
eihrul :)
636 has about 25% of the kernel working
is brix interactive now?
it created an object that had the text in it and then called the code that requested the text screen memory and displayed the text
this next version has all the thread management crap done, semaphores, events,... all done
but does it have interaction of some kind?
just the kernel hooks arent done
if i add the keyboard stuff then yes
ah
i have always had the keyboard stuff done
but with events i couldnt use it
er without
i thought you got events done?
i also have floppy and console crap
events are now done
well they were, and then i changed the data structure
ah