IRC log started Sat Jul 24 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0724 -:- ruiner [nate@ppp040.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes hmmmmm.....anybody looking for help with their os? out of curiosity... no response.....k I was just wondering if anybody had tried to enlist help via slashdot 01:10am -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- franx [user9106@195.240.83.1] has joined #Tunes -:- franx [user9106@195.240.83.1] has left #Tunes [] -:- smoke [smoke@14dyn65.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes people hi 03:20am core! -:- Fare3053 is now known as Fare fare! t'es pas sur mon serveur, enfoire de toi :-) komenvatu? serveur? bien bien! en train de delirer avec le driver mediagx sous clementien :-) et toi? fare: /whois core s/tien/tine/ -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes hum mon serveur donc ;) ex irc.ggi-project.org -dans-son-coin :) comment ca va? t'etais parti en exil :) ouais, St Malo, Grenoble... oui on a vu ton rapport de globe-trotter sur la ML ;) t'as essaye de comprendre mon article? * Fare/#Tunes compiles retro and clementine Hum. Where is my floppy drive? j'avais pas trop le temps de convertir du .ps :) mais je le lirai ce weekend convertir? man gv apt-get install gv je sais comment ca marche, c'est pas le premier .ps que tu nous sors ;) bon, ben alors? ghostview est inmettable :) je prefere l'imprimer, j'ai une imprimante postscript ici gv >> ghostview less implement1.tex mais je lis tous les documents que tu ecris, meme s'il me faut un dictionnaire a cote, meme pas mal :) 03:30am :( pour un dico anglais-anglais, apt-get install dict hehe non, il *me* faut un dico parce que tu emploies des mots qui sont courants pour toi mais moins pour toi, mais une fois ca regle, c'est interessant et bien ecrit :) ton article sur la metaprogrammation et la disponibilite des sources a fait le tour de mes amis (bon celui la etait relativement facile en vocabulaire :) heureux qu'il y en ait qui apprecient... (a vrai dire, je me suis fais un ami grace a cet article: ca lui a tellement plu qu'il m'a contacte!) c'est quoi, la difference entre nasm 0.98pl3.6 et 0.98? bien sur que y'en a qui apprecient.. si y'avait plus du tout de recherche et de documents ecrits, on dirait tous sig heil a micromou 0.98 c'est la version finale.. qq bugs en moins, la doc terminee (achtung! separee de l'archive principale, il faut la prendre a part desormais !), etc.. autant upgrader a 0.98 j'suis paresseux :) hehe.. ben normalement clementine marchera, a vrai dire il marchait avec 0.97 tres bien alors.. si c'est plus complique que apt-get install nasm, j'ai peur hehe qq'un fera bientot des packages debian pour nasm, binutils et gdb patches pour clementine qq'un? soit lionel au boulot (qui a fait l'outil de construction d'image pour clementine qui remplace les makefiles pourris :), soit "quelqu'un" des que ca sort en open :) clementine is twice bigger as retro is this good or bad? :) 03:40am clementine has GGI :P neither hum. i think ggi takes half the source-space :) (even if it takes little runtime space) (well, it has some of ggi anyway; the drivers i have tested to work - vga, permedia 2, mediagx) retro on Kadath: error on early components fatal error :( retro or clementine? oops. I mean, clementine core: hi! retro works fine on Kadath hey crimson :) * Fare/#Tunes goes test on ZhengHe -- c u ! fare: oh, did you build it with bison or byacc? crimson: your cvs repository is messed up :) * Crimson/#tunes has done a scheduler now... core: really? core: it is plundis work... core:~/sources/kernels/chaos$ cvs -d :pserver:guest@chaosdev.org:/usr/local/cvs checkout chaos Sorry, you don't have read/write access to the history file /usr/local/cvs/CVSROOT/history (that's a server side issue btw :) core: hmm... i will send an email to plundis... okay :-) -:- DimGuy [dimguy@as002305.singnet.com.sg] has joined #Tunes fare: make sure you did make mrproper, and that you have byacc, not bison fare: the yacc prompt should say: yacc [-dlrtv] [-b file_prefix] [-p symbol_prefix] filename fare: if you did both, then make should build the entire OS (about 1 minute 15 seconds here :) «»core«»: What does *.fr stands for? dimguy: franconia core: what os? os is never complete okay crimson: oh. eh. clementine :) OS is operating system * Fare/#Tunes is back dimguy: *shrug* france obviously. hum. Fatal: Error in early components Oh.. Sorry.. I wanted to find out core: the pagelevel protection works fine now... maybe I did sumthin wrong at compile time? 03:50am fare: read above whether there are any servers which are none other than usa and singapore to link to a network.. hee dimguy: no, my server is in france France... > yacc 13:03:54 usage: yacc [-dlrtv] [-b file_prefix] [-p symbol_prefix] filename dimguy: openprojects has servers al over the place Eh.. core fare: okay. did you do make mrproper as the first thing? It is not linking here... s/al/all/ dimguy: well, open a server in .sg :) SG servers are slow core: I didn't. retrying. damn laggy hee SG? fare: please do, i changed too much singapore :_ core: did you update your Review-page? fare: the system builds on ~ 15 different boxes out of cvs checkout, there must be some compile time issue yes :) crimson: no :(( i must do that today. .fr means german conquerors enslaved the people in this country. Anybody can help me to link to a network? crimson: did you update your THANKS file? :) core: think so... =) crimson: hehe, just curious fare: want to work for an innovative french start-up ? *grin* DG: apparently you're already linked to the internet! Eh... dimguy: then use a nearby USA server, what can i say :) I wanted a dedicated one... US? well, US is full of em core: maybe when I'm fired from my PhD studentship I am not in US... fare: that'd be nice :) (not that you get fired of PhD, eh, that you came here.) dimguy: singapore links mostly to the US to go to the rest of the world Hmm.. No no I want to run ircd. :) dimguy: then run it..? * Fare/#Tunes fucks the french fisc fare: you too? we can start a club. But this irc network wants servers from other places dimguy: they will accept .sg Nope. SG servers are damn slow dimguy: why? ssh? :) zeeya! dimguy: they don't acre (actually, "the french fisc fucks fare" would be more accurate) s/acre/care/ seeya crimson care? They really do reject sg servers i have tried us and sg servers but got rejected fare: again, we could start a club :) (i'm single [taxes-wise anyway], young, cadre, nicely paid, and have shares.) core: that makefile replacement, you mean, mkimage? fare: yep *sigh* fare: it does an integrity check, albeit a little inflexible at the moment (ie. checks all deps of all components) retrying on Kadath... fare: does it run? "error in early components" can only denote a build problem still same error what the hell shall I rm -rf clementine, and check it out once again? you updated all patches, right? patches? rebuilt binutils and nasm aaaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh! * core/#tunes finds a nice spot where fare can't hack at him with an axe * core/#tunes decides to hide there for a while 04:00am what about nasm-j5 ? whatever that is? :) john fine's patch #5 ? yup hum, and where is the binutils source to patch? not in linux/GCC anymore, nor in /pub/gnu/binutils !!! well, i'd think p5 is < 0.98, but try it if you like :) -:- DimGuy [dimguy@as002305.singnet.com.sg] has left #Tunes [] core: where did you find the binutils sources? fare: ftp://ftp.varesearch.com/pub/support/hjl/binutils/ fare: well, it was on metalab at the time i got it, but it's there as well where on metalab? this URL seems to be the home of H.J. Lu tho. fare: it's not on metalab anymore ouch. HJLu. Not someone I'd trust on code reliability. This guy is a specialist in kluges you're biased by NFS :) (he's maintaining linux nfs code :P) so he also wrote linux NFS code? that explains a lot! yeh twisted asian mind. i'd think he also wrote IRIX's if it wasn't a closed system, but anyway :) cannot do anything straight! fare: damn asians! :) [hello, dear mr. irc log. for the record, and for people who won't get the joke later, Fare is. thank you, end of sidenote] core: hey, you're late! There binutils 2.9.4 out already! is it? well, i've been in apnee for 2 months, i guess i should update :) whee, i have a new way to annoy people who work on clementine :-) and 2.9.5.0.3, actually * Fare/#Tunes wonders which version to try... oi, still 260 release critical bugs on potato :/ fare: ah, ok. well, compile 2.9.1.0.25 for now, and i'll update :) 04:10am ok (since you have cable now, i don't feel too bad making you download 10 MB tarballs :) fare: btw, in mid-august or so, we will setup a dedicated box at suntech, for opensource projects. if tunes needed any extra services, you'll be able to host them there. great! a reliable french mirror for tunes wouldn't hurt. well, you'll have it :) don't let the rosbif be the only european to host tunes! * Fare/#Tunes hopes alaric doesn't read the irc logs :) OSS is part of suntech's engagement to investors, so we'll respect it fully. OSS server, oss system, etc. :) lol.. he probably will. hi alaric! :) why not announce it NOW? why not announce what now? your OSS support? oh well, i don't want to make empty announces the box will be up in another probably 3 weeks or so.; why not publish open source before the announce? at this time, we can make an announce and have people start using it immediately :) cause we need more time than that :) clem will be released later than mid-august * Fare/#Tunes hits core's head with a clementine tree or worse even, with a binutils tree! oh, 2.9.5.0.3 is dev 2.9.1.0.25 is the latest stable * core/#tunes ponders "stable"! what a joke! well, think about it - 2.9.1.0.25 is stable for H.J. lu.. what will 2.9.5.0.3 be :) HJLu makes plug and pray a reality! 04:20am hehe.. maybe it's an evil m$ employee that's going to subvert linux with crappy code :) core: too late :) eihrul: what is? it's already subverted with ugly code... hum. Looks like 16-bit code is supported by gas, at last? fare: yeah, to some extent eihrul: ah well, for a "regular" system, it works, i guess. ugly code can work doesn't make it easy to maintain/modify however at last, I've found a new maintainer for the Asm-HOWTO! fare: who ? asm-howto? asm-howto is really mismaintained eihrul: fare maintains the assembly-howto just odd, a howto for a language? eihrul: duh! eihrul: no, it's a howto about how to write assembly under linux. then shouldn't it be the assembly-under-linux howto? eihrul: all HOWTOs are part of the linux documentation project, what do you think? howto's need not be limited to linux :P eihrul: well, say, there's a Bootdisk-HOWTO. Should it be renamed How-To-Make-A-Linux-Bootdisk-HOWTO ? eihrul: no, but it's a word that linux documentation people have coined, and everyone knows it means "HOWTO..do it under linux". "Konstantin Boldyshev" okay, i can live with that eihrul: would you think the 3DFX-howto is how to install your 3dfx in your computer too, or how to make it run under linux? :P fare: any good? fare: did you build binutils? not built it yet ahh built & installed nasm, unpacking binutils 04:30am core: btw, i've been tossing the bitmap scheme around in my head for a night or two... i cannot for the life of me find a way to avoid probing for a new string of raw pages once the current pointed to string is taken okay eihrul: then read the buddy scheme again :) bitmap? fare: free pages bitmap it's not that i don't get the buddy scheme it's just i don't get how you're doing it so easily with a bitmap is a bitmap efficient? i use lists, but samuel falvo does it with a bitmap just fine :) when memory is heavily loaded, bitmaps might suck but you still have to probe in some cases i can't find a way around that without leaving holes of unused pages fare: well, not scanning through them - more like using the buddy scheme i use, on them how is that a bitmap, then? fare: well, you have bits set when pages are allocated :-) who ever checks those bits? the question is: is the bitmap the sole mechanism for doling out pages fare: the buddy allocator :) or do you have helper structures such as lists? eihrul: again, _i_ use lists :) (not a bitmap) well, if i were to use a bitmap :) eihrul: download dolphin code i guess, or ask sam dolphin code? eihrul: http://www.dolphin.openprojects.net been looking at L4 though, it has given me some ideas the idea of user level page allocation/management seemed nice because then however you allocate pages is really insignifigant because it can always be replaced easily the way i allocate _memory_ can be easily replaced. even by something not using paging if you want insecurity and speed for some embedded application. i.e. you can easily remove the paging mechanism? yeah, if you write a memory manager that doesn't use it, and still complies to the clementine interface for memory management. so paging is completely implemented at the user level or is it just that it provides a linear map of pages? other components don't care about paging they just ask for memory. 04:40am would anyone here know a fast way to call a userspace routine from kernelspace in linux? (or are linux questions very offtopic here?) no paging means no more TLB misses! smoke: you don't it means more predictable real-time behavior, too smoke: there is no PL0->PL3 call scheme. but it means no more hardware help for virtual memory smoke: you have to send a signal to the userspace process, so it can be woken up by the scheduler fare: that's a bad thing :) smoke: the kernel definitely does not want to call user-space routines! fare: well, you can develop the system using a paging mm, and when everything is bootstrapped with your safe compiler, you can automagically get rid of H/W protection :) core: hm. the thing is that signals are handled asynchronously afaik, and i need about ~1ms accuracy smoke: you can't do that. boohoo smoke: async is the only way to trigger an action from kernelspace to userspace core: paging is not just protection; it's also a way to achieve various tricks. smoke: but CPS can help transform async into sync fare: i KNOW :) like copy on write, partial mmapping, etc. core: what i want is to have 70fps video (means polling the retrace) with a modplayer running in another thread; until now i haven't found a solution fare: what is cps? smoke: you can't do that :) core: i can poll the retrace, but when the musicthread is running at the time the retrace occurs i miss a frame.. so i need to cancel the musicthread out just before the retrace may occur smoke: if you signal the process, and it has higher priority than the mod thread, it'll wake up first. (i'm sorry if i am messing up a discussion here, please tell me to shut up about non-tunes related topics) core: wow, dolphin code is pretty clean and small... eihrul: and not very functional.. but it's clean eihrul: sure if i'm going to read it, i'll take clean over functional linux is functional, but it's an absolutely bitch to figure out how it works sometimes linux code is interdependent on everything. they have macros all over the place living in header files that you think are just normal functions that have various ugly side effects all my macros are uppercase. well, some are uppercase in linux, some aren't hence the chaos 04:50am eihrul: Clean *is* a functional language :) CPS is Continuation Passing Style fare: sometimes you have to trade cleanliness for functionality (or lack thereof :>), but only to a certain limit * Fare/#Tunes make install the binutils fare: is cps a mechanism in linux? 05:00am smoke: no, it's a general implementation technique although it's used in linux in the form of sigreturn 05:10am aha fare: did you build binutils? yup fare: does clementine work now? * Fare/#Tunes make mrproper; make (i assume you also make install'ed binutils and nasm :) * Fare/#Tunes is having disagreements with the new HOWTO maintainer about using direct linux syscalls fare: is the new asm-howto maintainer any good? fare: why, you think it's a good idea to use syscalls directly? :/ 05:30am fare: allo? 05:40am hmm * smoke/#tunes is puzzled by how to solve the modplaying problem :( 05:50am fare ?! core: he looks ok fare: it boots now? although he has something against the libc ld: unrecognised emulation mode: i386xcom32 fare: you have make install-ed ouch. Did I forget to apply the patch? fare: or didn't ./configure right ./configure --enable-shared --enable-targets=i386-clementine-xcom32 oops bummer! hope your box is fast :) 06:00am :( :( * Fare/#Tunes is rewriting the Asm-HOWTO I wish to make a common release with the new maintainer before to make him officially so and to retire fare: please re-recompile binutils and retry making clementine, i have to know if it works :-) fare: is the new maintainer any good? (#3) :) fare: i can't stay connected all day :( not from home anyway why use section .text when you can just say .text ? habit i guess did you build binutils? i'm on isdn at the moment :( 06:10am oops, forgot to type "make" after configure --... *sigh* :) /usr/local/bin/ld:archive.lo: file format not recognized; treating as linker script wtf is that? methinks you should take /usr/local/bin out of your path for the time to recompile and make install binutils again, then put it back yup core: do you know where PLundis is? i heard PLundis was the ruler of the known world. I control this world at the top of Plundis's fingertips. crimson: no? crimson: i thought you would know :) why ? * Fare/#Tunes puts "cdplay" on the input buffer of the "make" window, so that he'll be notified hehe core: you know, we use the same bot on irc.chaosdev.org... crimson: yeah, so i heard crimson: you should like to OPN s/like/link/ core: how to use .bss in nasm? yeah... i should... ;) fare: section .bss should set defaults? fare: or stick 'nocontents' or whatever ELF uses, next to it I mean, how to reserve space in .bss? what's the diff between resc, resd, resb, etc? fare: oh. resb reserves bytes, resw words, resd dwords, und so weiter resc? i don't know this one. chars? *shrug* must be that i can look it up if you like i don't see any resc retro uses it in forth.asm!!! 06:20am hmm, okay. not a macro of his? maybe doesn't seem to be what are alignment and ordering guarantees in .bss? depends on the fileformat can the assembler reorder entries? must it align them? nasm will never reorder ELF has tunable alignment for any section in its header (like xcom) ok, installing xcom why is the configure flag not implicit in presence of the xcom patch? i suppose it could be made so the idea was to donate it to gnu and let them integrate it with binutils in general, in its current form, so obviously most people wouldn't want to build xcom by default ranlib: Symbol `bfd_target_vector' has different size in shared object, consider re-linking make[1]: *** [install_to_libdir] Error 139 ouch wtf did you do :) :( :( :( you did a make clean before remaking, right? (binutils that is) 06:30am fare: any progress? :) i must go for now - please email me when you sorted it out :) -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations) 06:40am -:- ArkA [user4851@bhd5-Arc1-s64.mtl.colba.net] has joined #Tunes guys! cant configure yamaha sound,who can help? -:- ArkA [user4851@bhd5-Arc1-s64.mtl.colba.net] has left #Tunes [] 07:00am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1014.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System || Geek Chicks || ruby -:- Netjoined: heinlein.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by heinlein.openprojects.net -:- ArrakisFlag [kseu@client54.subnet60.DEPAUW.EDU] has joined #Tunes -:- ArrakisFlag [kseu@client54.subnet60.DEPAUW.EDU] has left #Tunes [] -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes people hi fare: are you still around ? yup not for long, tho got my mail? still buggy! is this KGI's fault? i don't think so okay, can i email you a fdimage? and can you please email me yours? sure. Does it erase my disk and replace its contents with 0xF00DBAD ? fare: of course :) or 0xCAFEBABE, i don't remember core: can't I scp it to a relevant site instead? fare: that'd require setup on my part, unless i can scp it from you * Fare/#Tunes scp1'ed it to fare@bespin.cx:~fare/fdimage.bz2 okies 08:30am ok, i'm getting it * Fare/#Tunes has an actually useful command that consists to cat > /dev/hda4 ... fare: that's just an fdimage tho :) * core/#tunes tests fare's image it fails here too. build problem. what the hell? fare: does my image boot? yup on Kadath, at least does it get to the prompt without problem? does the depmgr display the equivalent of paris' phonebook (sizewise) at boot time? :) yup. init.c warning about dummy tasks yep, that's normal and intended see I improved verbosity a lot after your remarks :) 08:40am A+ bye fare :) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations) 08:50am -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup341.nni.com] has joined #tunes hi sr hey bonjour, s_r 10:30am -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- kermit [kermit@rrosd14.impsat.net.ar] has joined #tunes hello all i need some help its about some C coding ... ok, shoot ok, i want to know when users login ... so i open("/var/run/utmp", O_RDONLY) then i FD_SET(utmp, &myset); then i select(utmp+1, &myset, NULL, NULL, NULL); everything works ... but i cant seem to "see" when new users log in ... new users don't login as far as i know the user account is created, then the new user just logs in normally what i mean, is that if there were 5 users on the system, if a sixth user logs in my program wont see him eventhough i have a read(utmp, buffer, sizeof(struct utp)); after the select(); so select () only works once, and reports no other appends to the file after the first? right ... even if i tell select to block forever ... it wont block ... i also tried w/poll() but i get the same results perhaps it is such that you can only read up to the effective length of the file when at the time of opening 10:50am well ... it should work ... im kind of lost here ... not exactly familiar how appends to a file are handled if there are already file descriptors allocated to readers but intuitively, you would think that you'd only want to read the file as it was when it was opened well, thats true ... but what if i wanted to read on an on .. i mean, when other programs make chages to the file i want to be able to see them ... hrmm... why not try looking at how the various /proc readers handle it since they need to constantly read in changes to the varios status files there yeah, thats true ... just go find a load meter :) ill do that ... thanks i'm looking too, curious about this myself :) if you find anything good please let me know : kermit@tower.com.ar only take a second for me to look it opens and closes the file every time it reads damn ! it would be easier to do a: for(;;) { sleep(1); system("w"); } (: must be some way to monitor the state of a file without opening it though yeah ... anyway ... i should go now ... thanks for everything. ciao. -:- SignOff kermit: #TUNES ([BX] Silly faggot! mIRC is for kids!) 11:00am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- ruiner [blah@ppp342.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- smkl [sami@CMXXXI.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us914.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup057.nni.com] has joined #tunes !drow:*! lackey.openprojects.net will be right back, folks. -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-012.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes hey beh hey sr hows everyone tonight? comatose hoy Beholder Great! :) At least they're relaxed 01:20pm what are you working on now beh? sr: Too damn much :( sr: Right now, I'm tweaking my IRC client... might as well be comfortable here :) -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes people hi hey core hey newbie hey beholder :) =) * core/#tunes ponders /kill'ing s_r and then laughs :) beholder: how's uniOS and your new project? :) well the reason i said "newbie" was when i first switched to this window all i saw was "people hi" and it sounded like something a drifter newbie would say hehe core: UniOS is slow, other projects are good at the moment beholder: you were working on a game, or something, right? an RPG? core: Yep, we're discussing it (or supposed to be) in #tpp right now s_r: i say stupid sentences like that all the time :) beholder: cool. what kind? beholder: any document online about it? * core/#tunes listens to basement jaxx. abi: tpp? tpp is the programming place, a group of hobby programmers doing what programmers should be doing, at http://tpp.dhs.org or the home of the AKOS project or a Tunes knock-off. http://tpp.dhs.org abi: akos? akos is A Kind Of Special game or at http://tpp.dhs.org/AKOS.html shouldn't be programmers coding, rather than ircing? ;) * core/#tunes goes look core: I agree :) core: ircing is programming others hcf: lol. good one. hcf: Fare would know :) Beholder: how well do u know python? hcf: well enough... core: are you making any games? Beholder: seen ruby?/ s_r: i worked on Rayman when i was young 01:30pm s_r: and wrote the 3D engine of Tonic Trouble. hcf: nope hmmm tonic trouble well, the landscape engine it was based on, anyway. abi: ruby? i think ruby is oo script lang at http://www.netlab.co.jp/ruby/ or a cross between perl and python make a 3d game for clementine :) Beholder: check it out and write up a review s_r: i could port my old 3D code, since i have a working 2D layer :P woohoo, heinlein is up to a whopping 5 clients :P hcf: Write up a review? Beholder: why not * core/#tunes should really update the OS review hcf: For the tunes review stuff? Beholder: what else? hcf: Ok, brb -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (Read error to Mr_Wrong[adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]: EOF from client) -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes beh: have you done any programming with GGI? yeah, ggi rocks. sr: Yep, using Java and Python beholder: you're using our python wrappers? 01:40pm core: Which python wrappers? beholder: GGI's ? beholder: or did i misunderstand? if X did start using GGI, how do you think games woudl interface with the graphics hardware? would they use Xlib, which in turn would use X server, which in turn would use GGI? core: Now you got me confused ;) I used Java and Python to do CGI (not at the same time, just used both of them to do it at one point or another :) And yes, Python has some nice CGI wrappers, which seem to work well or would they go straight to GGI (under X) s_r: you can run games w/ GGI on another virtual console, or it can use the DGA target for full screen beholder: s_r asked about GGI, not CGI :P Damn :) No wonder this got confusing ;) s_r: we did python wrappers, so i thought you were talking about that :) s/s_r/beholder/ beholder: hehe * Beholder/#tunes is running 1024x768 with IRC at 8 points... gotta make that bigger ;) * core/#tunes runs in 1600x1200 with a 13 pixel font :) core: Either my eyesight is getting bad, or you're crazy ;) beholder: why? 13 point works :) core: Just changed to 12 point, you're right 13 would probably look fine at that rez beholder: it does.. it's not BIG, but it's nice. i didn't change to 1600x1200 to use a 20 pixel font and have the same desktop space as in 800x600 :-) core: when you say "on another virtual console" do you mean GGI will run in a window on X? err the GGI app s_r: it can run in a window on X, as fullscreen on another VC (like ctrl+alt+f2 or something), it can run fullscreen under X with DGA s_r: the user chooses. the program doesn't care. core: What kind of monitor are you running with? beholder: 19", i just upgraded (today actually :) 01:50pm core: Sweet :) I'm still running a 15" KDS, which is nice, but is only spec'ed for 800x600 optimal beholder: ouch, hehe, yeah; I had a 15" for years, then a 17", then the 19" i wanted dropped at $450, so i was like, what the hell :) hmm i don't understand how a GGI app would run in a window under X... i though GGI reports straight to the hardware, and if it ran in a window it would have to use X?? s_r: you miss a critical piece of info s_r: ggi applications open libggi s_r: libggi then selects the target the user wants and connects the application to it s_r: the "target" can be: KGI (and the raw hardware), an X window, DGA, etc. so libggi uses X? s_r: libggi uses X, KGI, DGA, etc. whatever you want. ok * s_r/#tunes has to read more code :) *sigh* so much to learn... s_r: i wrote some of that, that's how I know :P core: hmmm i htink i'll use ggi for all my graphics work s_r: cool it provides a uniform interface * core/#tunes quickly posts to the ML.. "someone uses our work!" :-) but if _only_ GGI worked in BSD s_r: libggi works on BSD well hope to s_r: KGI does not, but libggi compiles fine s_r: if it doesn't, mail whs@xs4all.nl ok when do you think KGI will be ported? he's the *bsd blockhead s_r: whenever someone from the *bsd team wants to get to it i guess s_r: it's designed to be ported - you only have to write one OS-specific file hmm xs4all, are you the "cor" from xs4all? no, xs4all.nl is a provided in netherlands i'm in france whs == wouter h. scholten ah beautiful France yeah, with our meridian and all. do they roll blocks of cheese down the street in france as they do in the movies :) hey - holland is beautiful too :) -:- empiric [empiric@aa163.du.pipex.com] has joined #Tunes -:- empiric [empiric@aa163.du.pipex.com] has left #Tunes [] s_r: of course, you wouldn't think that murkins had enough imagination to make that up smoke: i confirm, i was there in may :) 02:00pm hehe :) any of you experienced with KURT ? i have an uncle named "Kurt" but that's about it smoke: i heard a nirvana song once and felt an urge to empty my intestines, does it help you? i meant KU RealTime, the linux kernel patch :) oh, whee. no. hmmm making the linux kernel realtime? s_r: they're competing for the world biggest duct tape core: hahaha :) core: the problem is that i know of no other os that actually -is- useful and has a happy license and is available.. that should change sometime smoke: freesbee is nice.. otherwise, yeah, maybe in a few months...:) core: freesbee == freebsd ? yup sorry i hope to be using clementine instead of linux/windows :) i hear freebsd has the same 100 HZ ideas as linux has smoke: i didn't say freesbee was realtime. just that it is useful :) s_r: hmm, it'll take a while before it's as functional as either, but who knows :P s/useful/useful to me/ :) if you get enough people working on it it could rapidly progress core: does extending clementine involve hard thinking, and/or is it possible to write filthy code for it? s_r: yeah, that's my hope :) but then you'd have to restrict the people to those who make quality code and stay true to your ideas :( smoke: it's entirely made of independent components s_r: no, the fact it's components means (hopefully) you can write your own thing and people won't use it or include it in their system if they don't like it, but you can still have it core: would it be easy to break independency? s_r: it'll take a lot of work to define standard interfaces for the various components that everyone conforms to what language is it written in ? C++ smoke: well, you can write a big component, that depends on a lot of things it doesn't forcibly need, but that's it i guess? :) ah, c++ my one true love.. smoke: C and assembly for the current components and most tools. there's a couple tools in c++. smoke: don't listen to s_r :) hmm asm, sort of like Retro and brix only a couple graphical tools (not even in cvs yet, eh, fare :) are c++. and i didn't write them. s_r: there's not as much asm as in brix or retro. not even close. cvs? can i do an anonymous checkout? smoke: no, not yet smoke: in a couple months :) damn i hate cathedrals :) cool 02:10pm smoke: it's not a cathedral, mostly a foundation, and i want it to be finished before it's out in the open :) is it as far along as BRiX? s_r: i can't judge brix, qz is secretive. core: i'll wait :) core: have you seen Dolphin? s_r: but clementine boots, multithreads, displays in a xterm, has an interface for files, has 2D display drivers, has a component system, has tools.. i don't know is qz is further. s_r: yes, i've known samuel falvo for a very long time, i adviced him for a few things in dolphin (modestly). and he participated to the xcom design (modestly as well). * s_r/#tunes is thinking of writing a compiler that will be tied closely to XCOM object based, etc s_r: cool but that's pie in the sky :) s_r: xcom is an open platform, feel free to improve it to your needs * smoke/#tunes could only offer to do stupid eyecandy the more i think of it the more i like XCOM better than ELF i hope Fare rapes it and adds what he needs s_r: thanks :) reminds me of that strategy game from microprose too :) s_r: as with all i do, there are probably many ways to improve it, but i think it's quite solid now; all components of clementine are compiled to xcom objects, and it's been working for a year. s_r: oh yeah, the ufo attack. it was a really neat game. now if i could find someone from the egcs dev team that could fill the blanks i have.. minor issues but still. s_r: well, if you think you can do anything useful with xcom, feel free to use it dolphin will use it, retro apparently will too, i'll be glad if it becomes an interchange format one toolchain for all OSes. ok i'll breathe now :-) that's where i know xcom from it had a really ugly interface, hope that only goes for the game :) smoke: hehe smoke: well, you can use xcom transparently; the only thing is to write a loader for your runtime :) smoke: http://xcom.tunes.org - if you want to hack at it.. :) i should sick Teunis and his compilation expertise on it. (teunis peters, y' know) i've seen him on the ggi mailinglist i think -- Teunis smoke: yep, the "have a g'day, eh" guy :) smoke: he's modest and super nice, but when he starts showing you some stuff he did, you're like "okay, so you code 37 hours a day? hmm hmm hmm." 02:20pm hahhaha :) i wish _my_ days had four days in 'em. and i don't know, i guess his funny way of talking makes everyone like him :) yeah, where are those 127 hour days jason and andreas promised? fuck, undernet is lagged like mad. for a change. -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.003 -- Accept no limitations) -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes okay, that was interesting. 02:30pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) core i have a question i want to make objects in a program replaceable, so that i could take one object and just remove references to it and add references to a new object how would i do this with function calls? 02:40pm is there any way to make function calls point to a flat 32-bit address? -:- smoke [smoke@14dyn101.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes or are they just displacements sorry, i was talking to my gf well, if you use no segmentation, function calls are just a 32 bit address on x86 02:50pm -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup057.nni.com]) -:- binEng [Anders@dialup47-1-23.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- Goid [shendrix@pm8-44.wmbg.widomaker.com] has joined #tunes -:- Goid [shendrix@pm8-44.wmbg.widomaker.com] has left #tunes [] -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup641.nni.com] has joined #tunes ok core you say they are just 32-bit addresses? jmps i thought they were displacements... jumps, yes i thought you meant function addresses in general you can correct jumps with pc-relative relocations, like xcom and elf use so you can make jmps jump to 32-bit addresses? * s_r/#tunes is just a newbie :( s_r: no -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) s_r: but you can fix references in jmps at runtime, given the right compile-time information s_r: so you can make them jump to the address you want, anyway. so then what uses flat 32-bit addresses to "jump" to? call? 03:10pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- Neoteric_ [timball@207.152.46.2] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Neoteric_: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.004-19990528 -- Accept no limitations) -:- ElGato [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup47-1-23.swipnet.se]) -:- binEng [Anders@dialup42-2-20.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes wb hm. thanks hey gato hey bineng :) hiya hi core hi :) core what did you do as far as FPU support goes for clementine? it's just multiplexed if there is one well like did you reserve space in the TSS's for FPU context? eh? oh well, not in the TSS. I use one TSS per cpu, not per process hmmm (well, the cpu component i wrote, does; maybe someone will write another cpu component that will do otherwise :) but yes you need to have room to save its state where is it stored then (if it is) oh in the thread management structure ahhh well, in the thread frame of execution structure to be specific the cpu component doesn't know about thread management. it just serves execution frames 03:50pm i gotta talk to tcn about it he has yet to put in support for that which im working on you can always write it and submit it :) yeah it's not hard ElGato: started working on BuenOS? i reckon i should do some of the necessary asm do lazy state saving yeah with the exception 7 trick? set whatever bit of CR0 triggers an FPU exception the first time an instruction is used then you can save the context yeah i read that in the 386 system software writers guide it's the best way i don't know if it's the best way it's one way i think it' s the best as long as you have more tasks that don't use the fpu than tasks that do, it is. there is no "best way" for anything. if you abstract context, you're a narrow thinker. well most apps don't use the FPU why save it each time but uh does clementine have math emu suppot? support no, not yet oh the linux code is licensed in a weird way it's like exclusively usable by linux and bsd all my books don't really explain how that works you set the EM flag and it's not critical for my short-term plans.. someone will write a component that does it eventually yeah, then you get FPU exceptions and emulate the intended behavior of the instructions :P but how do you know which FPU instruction was trying to be executed elgato: you read memory at EIP? :P 04:00pm isn't the EIP currently reading the code for exception 7? let me reformulate you read memory at the EIP stored in the exception context ie. what the cpu pushed on the stack before entering your handler ohhh (flags and cs:eip to be specific) so how much is pushed on the stack and what or how do you know? read the exceptions part of the x86 manuals hmmm the cpu pushes all necessary state ok like cs:eip of where the exception happened and eflags even my FPU manual is sorta vague or off topic and for some exceptions, an error code i'll just have to read up some more well, it's an x86 issue in general okey i'll read up when i finish this for retro im gonna use it in my own os i haven't written an fpu emulator so far tho, so maybe there are more issues, but that's how i'd start anyway, unless the fpu exception pushes a code on the stack that says what instruction it was, which i doubt. did you start anything wrt. your own OS yet? nah yeah when will you work on BuenOS? im writing my language first to write my os :D elgato: just asking :) elgato: did you start anything on your language? s_r: didn't you want to write an uK or something? no i think this is how mylanguage will go: all objects all local and functions can be global but by default they aren't ElGato: Won't functions be objects? and how does that differ from, say, C++? :) binEng that makes things kinda hard core: it's nothing like C++! elgato: no, i mean, for what you described. binEng: functions are like messengers in smalltalk smalltalk. mmmm. In AHLL, functions (methods) will be objects too. core: in c++ variables can be global now make code and data alike, and there we are One would think that would be obvious for a reflective language yes elgato: yeah, but you said you were to do that too :P i.e. the presence of a MOP or something similar mr_wrong: that was my point :) it's like lisp you can make code data also binEng how will that work? ElGato: Methods are just ordered sets of language primitives or other objects. The lang is interpreted, so it's not a problem. i haven't seen a really good way to make everything an object 04:10pm CLOS does it damn well. CLOS? abi: CLOS? elgato: i don't know gimme a url Hmmm, I guess it doesn't make sense for you to say you've never seen a really good way to make everything an object if you haven't seen CLOS It's the common lisp object system. Check on dmoz. how does it handle functions as objects? http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Lisp/CLOS/ Same way LISP does. They're first class values. In fact, they're just lambda lists. core: btw, you can't make functions local in c++ elgato: what about "private:" ? elgato: they're local to the object. true but what about in functions there isn't any scope btw if you quote code in lisp, how do you actually execute that code? eval, I believe oh well im gonna be gone for a week so i will think about this see you guys next week * Mr_Wrong/#tunes is more of a Scheme fan -:- SignOff ElGato: #TUNES (i expect clementine when i get back) 04:20pm -:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Beholder[ppp-012.m4-1.osh.ican.net]) -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-012.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-012.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-012.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- Tril_ [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-012.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes wow, _QZ finally admits he is a liar? tril_: i'm afraid it is sarcastic :) :) tril_: i did a massive update to clem's cvs, i'll send you a new tarball soon :) liar: I am sick of you misleading people that come to this channel by telling them lies about tunes core: oh, ok Tril_: i only told a couple ppl that tunes would be semi-ready to use in the next ten years :) tril_: gee, you sound thrilled :) tril_: there are a lot less hoops to it, you'll see well, I never actually read the SOURCE.. and it didn't do much when running 05:00pm core: i dont want a tarball but a binary would be nice :) liar: sure liar: tarball will have to wait a couple months anyway, besides a trusted few (still for the reason you all know.) core: i dont want a tarball at all liar: it'll be available to everyone in a couple months anyway, it doesn't mean you have to get it. oh kewl :) liar: don't go change this image with a hex editor writing "brix" where there is clementine tho :PP core: u shoulda told me that before i started hexing the dcc get liar: heh. bbiaf hmm, i thought u had smp? liar: this is a build out of cvs, support isn't in it 05:10pm ah suck, that was the only reason i wanted clementine :( liar: smp support is a little experimental at the moment. well if u need any smp testing i have a dual machien btw, i dont think the celeron 333+ are considered celeron A's 05:20pm the A was to distinguish the celeron 300 w/0k from the 300 w/128k can software detect whether a cpu is being OC'd? no liar it saw it as a celeron A? ya hmm, can you email me your stepping info? its a 366 like /proc/cpuinfo contents. i'll fix it. i thought i used intel's tables tho. i'll look. probably my table isn't up to date. i have a bi-pentium and a bi-pII SMP machine but if you want to test i won't prevent you no way to detect the bus speed eh? well beos can detect bus speed tril_: you can detect the cpu speed on P6 with tsc's, but it's not like i want to tell the guy the age of the mother of the engineer who designed the bus :) only info that's useful to optimising compilers and users.. :) i think u can get it from the chipset core: hmm i emailed someone my /proc/cpuinfo but i cant find the email and i no longer have linux on that machine -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250095.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes liar: just cat it again? :P hey core, ain't seen you in awhile liar: otherwise i'll just look at the latest stepping info from intel, but it's not like it really is going to prevent me from sleeping.. 05:30pm hey tcn :) glad to see you, too :) -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup641.nni.com]) so is there any smp at all in this image? cuz it says it only detected 1 cpu liar: not in this image, no, it's a build off CVS liar: right ok so what can i do with this image? help and ? dont work :) liar: i don't need help, i know the commands :) ha ha ha u wanna share them? heh ok show works you got the source code? it all starts making sense after ahwile :) liar: there are a bunch.. sh[ow] m[emory] {c[ache],r[egions]} .. m[emory] {a[lloc], f[ree], c[ache] {c[reate], a[lloc], f[ree]} ...... pyro: i didn't hand it out to anyone besides fare, tril and you, no -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( <k!14>) that was awhile ago too pyro: right.. december or so? :) pyro: well, fare has up to date cvs access pyro: and tril didn't bug me about it.. :) i thought you'd release it a little sooner.. tril_: me too ... tril_: if it was only me, i would have where do things stand now? pyro: release-wise? it's set for this fall, and without slipping away now. 05:40pm and there's no problem with GPL'ing it? hahah when u buy an intel cpu in a box it comes with a little sticker that say "intel whatever inside" and the manual tells howto put the sticker on yer computer and it says please do not place the sticker on yer monitor, floppy drive, etc... :) I should put a 'motorola inside' on my HP pyro: nope cool pyro: they realised it's either a) proprietary code, risking being wiped out by whoever b) open code, risk of having a lot of success. then why dont u gpl it now? liar: because it's scheduled to be at this date, which corresponds to the release of more than an useless toy liar: fare has up-to-date sources and can attest i'm not full of shit :P -:- iepos [magister@ns4.tecinfo.net] has joined #TUNES -:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Leaving) i'm paid to hack at an OS all day under whichever host environment i want, i'm not going to complain, really. did everyone die? :P what i'm talking in another chan... keep up the good work, Core :) core: OK you wanna talk about stuff, send me that image also... tril_: okay.. 05:50pm I was reading an article on my ISP.. these guys are pretty honest (winmodems suck, cookies suck, etc..) except this article about the iMac.. clarityconnect is run by mac geeks :) wow, you can plug in USB devices without turning the computer off! (hmm, I do that with serial & parallel all the time, and I've heard of it being done with disk drives :) ok, *everybody* left i'm here whats up 06:00pm oh , i'm going to find a disk to write this image core sent me oh, I was looking for a place to chat w/ local people since nobody leaves their fucking house anymore no luck w/ my isp.. their irc server was --empty-- and it covers 10-15 cities... pyro: look for Freenets they are devoted to local communities 06:10pm often associated with local governments or libraries rebooting to test disk I should start one -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ..........) instead of treating computers like arcade games, local establishments could have computers hooked up to the freenet (and also the internet, secondarily).. is that what you mean? 06:20pm >>> pyro [tcn@cci-209150250095.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 932866245 629782 from #tunes * core/#tunes returns sorry, girlfriend-issue. tril, pyro: still around ? yeah sorry, gf woke up at 3 in the morning and realized i was still on the computer :P same gf as last time you were on here? hehe. yeah. she puts up with me that's no small task :) I can't believe I stayed up till 4:30 last night playing Zelda 3 i hope the image i sent tril didn't erase all his partitions or something, and that's why he's not back yet :-) hehe fare suggested i overwrote all visible disks with 0xCAFEBABE, but i hope i #ifdef'ed that out :-) I guess it's normal though.. the bass player in my band got me into that game, and he used to stay up all night playing it too zelda64 is nice :) he had the real thing, I got snes9x :) well, i usually stay up till 3:00 and wake up again at 8:00 yeah, he's got a 64 too i can't sleep more than 5 hours in a row 06:30pm so usually i go to bed with her and go back on the computer when she's sound asleep :P haha but sometimes she wakes up and throws a fit, like half an hour ago :-) hey I shouldn't even bother getting another computer just get a console game, add a keyboard, hd, modem.. they should add SVGA monitor support to those console games then port retro to it? :) get an N64 and port it.. it's R4400 anyway :) okay, i should REALLY get to bed before i get shot sure ttys :) see ya bye :-) -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (zonk) 06:40pm unable to locate server members.aol.com?? -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup008.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (leaving early :)) 06:50pm -:- ZeRo [user1013@r242-107.adinet.com.uy] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ZeRo: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- backpacka [backpacka@kundip.copl.com.au] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1025.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hoy hcf hoy s_r -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Read error to s_r[phila-dialup008.nni.com]: Connection reset by peer) 07:50pm -:- s_r [s_r@phila-dialup482.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- Chipaca [chipaca@sequoia.fis.uncor.edu] has joined #Tunes -:- Chipaca [chipaca@sequoia.fis.uncor.edu] has left #Tunes [] i have a question about words and networking when a packet is sent from the network controller to the system usually the system does word in instructions but what if the packet is not evenly split into words? what if it ends on an odd memory address? 08:10pm abi: ALU is Association of Lisp Users at http://www.elwoodcorp.com/alu/ 08:20pm alu? alu is Association of Lisp Users at http://www.elwoodcorp.com/alu/ 08:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Logik [all@216.136.29.70] has joined #Tunes -:- Logik [all@216.136.29.70] has left #Tunes [] -:- NetSplit: verne.openprojects.net split from fontana.openprojects.net [11:13pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [verne.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: verne.openprojects.net fontana.openprojects.net -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by heinlein.openprojects.net -:- GMOL [yadavm@elvis.scripps.edu] has joined #tunes Fare around ? guess not.. -:- SignOff GMOL: #TUNES (Read error to GMOL[elvis.scripps.edu]: EOF from client) -:- SignOff backpacka: #TUNES (Read error to backpacka[kundip.copl.com.au]: Connection reset by peer) -:- SignOff Tril_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Tril_[sloth.wcug.wwu.edu]) 11:40pm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0725 IRC log ended Sun Jul 25 00:00:00 1999