IRC log started Thu Jul 1 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0701 -:- smoke [smoke@7dyn41.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi hi, Fare 04:10am -:- binEng [Anders@dialup46-4-27.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (100hz) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-154.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-79.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hi Fare: you plain suck ;) I agree: you plain suck :) fare: water and i were having a discussion about lisp last night oh yeah? and i was wondering if every operation in lisp at the machine level is a procedure which would be inefficient if every time you wanted to add something you'd have to have a function 08:30am lisp people have always had the concept of "open-coding" functions (what C people call "inlining") but have they ever implemented it? long before C did :) cooly take any idea in CS. Either it has been implemented in LISP long before, or shortly afterwards. LISP is _so_ flexible! YES! one thing though give me a moment to post it (not _every_ lisp has _every_ features; but _every_ feature was present in _some_ lisp) Tunes ought to be the ultimate LISP! "it does not matter which (terms) are primitive and which are considered derived" "However, there currently exists no programming system that implements this principle" 08:40am HS: who do you quote? hbaker? me? you oh. Where from? HLL requirements good. I won't deny my words. uh well what does it mean? ;) it's basicaly the reflection principle: things are to be considered up to meaning, 08:50am whereas current systems tie things absolutely to the way they are constructed. hmmm you're going to have to be more specific for a weak minded fool such as myself ahem are we awake? 09:00am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us933.javanet.com] has joined #tunes where is retro on cvs? http://cvs.tunes.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/retro/ how do i get there on bespin? 09:20am nevermind i'll just use lynx -:- __quem__ [nfn@gambuzino.ip.pt] has joined #tunes hi, quem? how is the summer in Portugal? <__quem__> Hi! Too hot! I'm melting over here... 09:30am oh my nine errors in scanner.h -:- Beholder [Beholder@ppp-004.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes k i've reduced it to 8 errors :\ hi beholder Hey all Trying this kewl kVIRC.... huge input window font ;) KVirc 0.9.0 by Szymon 'Pragma@ircnet' Stefanek ... what the hell was that? yay!!! 6 errors now What are you compiling? oh some code for a compiler im writing i hate errors don't you ;) Fare: you screwed up Ahh that while loop you showed me doesn't work 09:40am YES! two errors no one! :) -:- NetSplit: brin.openprojects.net split from lackey.openprojects.net [09:42am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [brin.openprojects.net] -:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes 09:50am beholder? you are the originator of the UniOS project, member of the Tunes project, and co-designer of the AKOS project busy man aye heheh... working mostly on AKOS just checking to see if ABI kept the setting I put it -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (damned if you do damned if you don't) abi? yes, Beholder? abi: bad girl! spank me Beholder hehehe 10:00am * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 12 hrs 15 min 35 secs >>> Tril [dem@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] requested PING 930848834 38489 from #TUNES pingin me? Hey tril, how are you today? hello i am fine Tril: I'm using kVirc for the first time, excuse any strangeness you see on my part ;) do you know if there is a way in netscape > 4.x to turn off images loading it doesnt seem to have the option in preferences Tril: What font would you reccomend to make reading things in Netscape easier? (in linux... the default is a little crappy) Beholder: just increase the font size to 14 point I don't think you can turn images off :( navigator 3.0 works better anyway for most pages. Yes, the only reason to use netscape 4 in windows is for the plug in support... there are no plug ins in Linux, so I guess 3.0 is fine some new javascript stuff makes it crash 10:10am no plug ins? yes, there are plugins for netscape in linux Actually, one of the places where I buy my hardware from uses a java script page, and it gives all sorts of strange erros plugins? Which ones? there's at least one midi plugin. the plugins use .so, standard shared object you can write your own click on advanced Oh, well that makes it easy :) to turn off images eStormy: thanks. i just went there, and dint read that line Tril: have u checked out the reflection stuff etc at http://www.laputan.org/foote/papers.html ? n Tril: Any reason why Linux doesn't like my 8G HDD? can you define "doesn't like" more precisely? Tril: Umm... seems to misreport the drive size, and doesn't see the last little bit of it 10:20am Damn... netscape just hung on me... POS did you just get the drive? or is linux already installed on it No it's when I try to install it... gives me a bunch of warnings too... too many cylinders or something RH6.0? rh5.2 what year was your bios made err, ide controller I have a BX motherboard... The HDD is set to LBA mode try booting linux by setting the hd options at the kernel arguments type 'linux hdx=cyl,hd,sec' where x is the drive Ok thanks. Right now I'm running it on a dedicated 2.5G drive, so it's not a big deal now, but before I had the drive I had to do some fancy partitioning to get it working linux usually detects the right drive parameters on boot up. Oh, i know. take the hd settings out of your CMOs setup if they exist, linux tries to use them, but if they are not, linux will detect the correct numbers by asking the drive. set the drive to None ... yes I think that if it's set to NORMAL mode rather than LBA it's supposed to fix the problem too, but Windows doesn't like NORMAL mode... are you using the drive with windows too? Yes what does it say when it lists the drives in the bootup sequence? (dmesg) The BIOS one or the Linux one? i meant linux, but they should be the same i think. Umm... 1028 cylinders.... can't remember the rest :( Any way I can get the message to pop up while I'm booted ;) I'm in Linux at the moment type dmesg or read the syslog WDC AC28400R, 8063MB w/512kB Cache, CHS=1024/255/63, UDMA Hmm... 1024? Should be 1028... according to the bios... i bet you formatted that drive in windows Partition magic 10:30am well, try linux hd?=1028,255,63 you can test it w/o rebooting inside fdisk run fdisk, use the command c to change the cylinders, and see if it lists everything and doesnt print any errors Ok, I'll do that. But right now I must go :( Anyways, thank Tril. One more thing... how do I kill a window in KDE? * Fare/#Tunes is back Gakuk! then quit without saving using q Tril: well I wouldn't press "w" ;) kill: run xkill at the commadn line , the cursor becoms a skull, click on a window that you want to die not just kde hi, Fare heheh... that got it :) chat later :) bye -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.217] has joined #Tunes Anyone wants to discuss intellectual property and copyright? been reading that thread with RMS? Kaufmann: why not? BTW, that reminds me, I was going to subscribe to cybernethics. Okay then. I think intellectual property is BS. K: ok, then we're two. Next topic? And it just pisses me off that things like this happen. (Source: Jornal do Brasil, 01/07/1999) "Piracy will be punished "Deadline for companies to legalize their software licenses due yesterday url? lemme check 10:40am ...how do I subscribe to cybernethics? http://www.tunes.org/cgi-bin/list-control http://www.tunes.org/cgi-bin/list-control?list=cybernethics&do=subscribe URL (portuguese): http://www.jb.com.br/08980020.html You can try Babelfish, but it sucks. * Tril/#TUNES tries anyway "Companies are with the counted days stop to regularize its programs of computer" the brazil government sucks, anyway -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.217]) oops, I mean, _plain_ sucks :) fare, are you lalowed to say that about your own governemnt? -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.201] has joined #Tunes This is just ridiculous. The ABES (Microsoft's puppet in Brazil) rules the software industry here. I think a major worldwide awareness campaign against intellectual property is necessary. Oh yes, have I mentioned that I /hate/ my Internet connection? 10:50am kaufmann it says they are looking at companies for piracy, so what? don't use proprietary software. They don't care about home users using free software ok, so it is anoying if your company gets searched by a government. But it is probably because lots of companies are using microsofot programs illegally. I believe that the copying of softwware is wrong, not because of a law, but if the author of the software does not want it copied, you should respect that. Microsoft wishes money for use of its programs, you should respect that, because they did make the programs Tril: it's all too easy to say "don't use proprietary software". I can do that, you can do that; it doesn't change the fact that Microsoft is able to leverage their mindshare monopoly to be able to enforce whatever ludicrously constrictive licenses they want on the market, even though they have /no right/ to make that kind of restriction, in principle. There are plenty of programs that you dont have to pay for. like i said, you give microsoft that power over you WHEN you choose to use microsoft software. Tril, that's the point! I /don't/ think that Microsoft making the programs implies that they have the right to restrict your use of them in such absurd ways. they invested money to dfevelop it, expecting money in return, if you dont give it to them, tat is the same as stealing. And maybe /I/ can choose not to use M$ software, but that's not the case with 98% of the consumer/corporate market, because of the aforementioned mindshare monopoly. That is a non-sequitur, Tril. i wasnt trying to invoke logical reason, so it's not your argument is that people cannot choose what software to use because they believe they cannot choose what software to use. which is correct. if they stop believing microsoft has power, then microsoft stops having power. 11:00am Nonetheless. What they expect in return is meaningless. The idea that because I'm the original author of a piece of data, I should be paid exhorbitant fees for every reproduction of that piece of data is ridiculous - whether we are discussing music or software. Both incite the development of bloat and bureaucracy - prime examples are Microsoft, Polygram/Universal, Sierra On-Line, EMI... et cetera ad nauseam. you are not being precise enough. IP law says that as the author you have the right to have your wishes enforced in distribution of the software. *I* dont believe in IP law, but instead that as the author, other users should respect your wishes simply because they respect you as a person. You haven't addressed the reason you don't want to pay fees. Is it because you just want to keep your money, or is it because you want to disrespect Microsoft. A much more logical idea is that one gets paid back for the actual work he has done. or because you don't respect microsoft, i mean paid for work done? how much? The amount paid depends on how much people value the work done. It's relative to the market. I don't want to pay fees because I don't think that it's a reasonable idea that I should pay for a license to use that particular piece of data. What code do you believe should be in effect? that everyone is forced to give software away for free? I have recently bought a LinuxPPC CD-ROM. I paid US$ 32 for it. It seemed perfectly reasonable - I needed a CD-ROM (couldn't afford to download it from the Net). Once I have that CD-ROM, I can install LinuxPPC wherever I want to. ip law says you can do that, because the author wrote it in the license. I say you can do it, because the author says it's ok. Why the hell do YOU say you can do it? Because you should be able to install anything wherever you want to? That is very rude, and if everyone followed it, good software would not be possible. you want software cheap for selfish reasons 11:10am I say I can do it because it's illogical and against the nature of data/software/music/information that its replication should be restricted. what about autrhors who want to write software and be paid for it. should microsoft use a donation basis? please pay for this software if you use it.. information has value, so there is a market for it that is , it may have value separately from its quantity so the value can't be measured by how many copies there are, it has to be measured some other way (if someone wants paid) * Fare/#Tunes is back * Fare/#Tunes just answered Kirk Wylie on cybernethics... microsoft has an easy business, compared to other business models. standard business means you have to get a resource (like some mineral) and acquire all phyiscal quantities of it. then you controll distribution, and can charge whatever you want. micrrosoft has an infinite resource (data) so they dont need to conquer a country. Their hard problem is controlling distribution of information AFTER they distribute it originally, since after all, it is an infinite Yes, definitely, information has value. That's why copyright law in its old form came to existence - because the consumers of information saw value enough in having the authors create more information that they agreed to, in return, give the authors the right to choose who could replicate that information and how. so in other words, their business model seems profitable to begin with, as they originally sell copies. but as they are illegally copied, in the long run their business is not sustainable. standard business is sustainable, only at the cost of continuing to keep control over the limited resources you base the business on. (but even that cannot be sustained indefinitely, because other resources will be discovered that make yours obsolete) That's the argument of ESR. He denies that "information wants to be free". Fare: which argument I say information _does_ want to be free. And it also wants to be useless. So that there is value in giving the _right_ information. That last assertion is questionable. Today, in Brazil, 61% of all software is irregularly copied (my replacement for "pirated"); that percentage arrives at 80% in the case of M$ products. Yet M$ makes absurd profits. They just don't think that even that much is enough. They're greedy leeches. and people will continue to pay for having the _right_ information even tough there is no license barrier. "That last assertion" = "but as they are illegally copied, in the long run their business is not sustainable." I agree with Fare on this. I must extend my reply to ESR to take into account his new article... k: greed isn't the only motivator for corporations. The culture of corporations creates traditions of behavior, which continue independent of greed Does anyone know what's wrong with www.gnu.org? Tril: I have a nice article by Bastiat on selfish reasons. kaufmann, use a mirror 11:20am The selfish reasons of producers is that things be expensive, that demand be high and offer be low. http://gnu.mirrors.com.br Thankee, Tril :) The selfish reasons of consumers is that things be cheap and abundant, that demand be comparatively low and offer comparatively high. Now, which selfish interest will you have laws favor, so that the world be better? Do you want goods to be few and expensive, or many and cheap? Fare: what if you are both a consumer and producer (like everying is)? in the former case, favor producers. In the latter case, favor consumers. everyone Tril: well, you'll have a hard life as a producer, and an easy life as a consumer. you'll have to work harder, but will be able to benefit from cheaper goods. But while this applies in the case of goods, the picture changes when you're discussing data. Fare: what if people get a view of the whole system, and decide that being a good producer overall makes it easier as a consumer? or if your producing aspect is protected, then you'll have an easy life as a producer and a hard life as a consumer. You won't work much, but will have few goods to use. I believe, unlike ESR, that is why free software succeeds. People write free software because they KNOW that writing free software benefits the community, and therefore themselves. it's a balance. All you can do is favor an aspect with respect to the other. The rest is mechanically decided from your actions afterwards. K: it doesn't change when discussing _services_ K: and in particular information-producing services. But it's much easier and cheaper to be a producer when you're in the data business. (Music, software, etc.) if you favor the creator of information, you put brakes on the consumer of information so do you want a world were it's easy to sell low-quality information and hard to buy high-quality information, or a world where it's hard to sell information, and easy to buy high-quality information? (I mean selling and buying _access_ to information, not putative "rights" to access information) in today's world, information producers are so much protected that they produce junk music, junk movies, junk television stuff. protection leads to junk. And to bloat. w/o IP, they will have to compete on quality. Since you can't get rich out of mere presence, but only out of renewed quality work, you'll have to work a lot. 11:30am and produce _good_ music, _good_ movies, _good_ television. Again and again and again. life will be hard for producers as such. But easy for consumers. Because of protection, they produce whatever they want, with the quality they want, always having the assurance that their product /will/ be consumed. Therefore whatever they do produces huge returns, for no apparent reason and to the detriment of consumers and competitors. so you wrote a few good thrillers? you'll have to go on writing good thrillers. Today, if you wrote a good thriller and became famous, you're encouraged to produce crap instead of improving your style (see Stephen King) loads and loads of crap, instead of just a few good things. which only makes things harder for people with actual talent, who have to overcome the inertia of such a saturated market A lot of companies on the market today are in the market because they're opportunistic bastards who want to get rich fast, and what better way than to be on the data business? (Again, data=software/music/etc.) yeah down with IP. Not just software IP. All IP. Agreed. IP is an insult to my fundamental rights as a citizen. Fare: Lots of people buy Stephen king, and Micorosfot. Obviously it's not THAT crappy to my freedom as a human being. at least it is minimally effective Tril: it began good. It stays marginally useful. "minimally" effective? Why is that acceptable at all? Tril: but it doesn't have to compete anymore so it evolves only in the direction of acquiring mindshare, instead of striving for technical quality in its own field. Is there already such a movement or organization? Microsoft DID do interesting things; Stephen King DID write a few good books. And they DO have good ideas, occasionally even now but the IP system encourages them to not make the best out of themselves. Fare: that's what kaufmann said, but it's a lie It encourages them to just throw the idea in a bad shape, forbid other people to make it better, and sell it hard bucks out of their accumulated mindshare. no, it isn't a lie. it's an economical fact. Stephen King's publisher knows anything signed "stephen king" will sell a lot. So he encourages SK to write more and more things in quantity. To the detriment of quality. And everyone will say "oh, it's great", so even he might not realize how bad he became. Or he may not care about it anymore. He thinks "it's easy to me, and it pleases people. I've found the greatest way to be maximally useful". but that's not so. The situation with software is even worse than with the literary industry, because software is effectively /business/, while literature is effectively /entertainment/. 11:40am yeah. With software, the utility loop is very tight, whereas the utility loop of literature is very loose. So there's overall a very strong prejudicial financial effect in things being this way in software. So that things are _much_ worse with software Hum. I should take today's irclog as another draft for my upcoming article on free software... Anyway. Tril: what's that stuff on /serv/ftp/pub about windows? fare, look in README it's just patches for win95 why is winzip directly in /pub ? couldn't it be win95/ and then win95/windows_update/ and win95/utilities/ or such? dont know. move it to windows95 if you want :) sure ok oh, and isn't win95 so obsolete that the update is meaningless? Gotta go now. K: see you! -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein) Tril: see how I rearranged the /ftp/pub -:- _ruiner_ [nate@t-50-209-53.dialup.wisc.edu] has joined #tunes got spammed by essenceos people today see http://www.essenceos.net 11:50am Tril: btw, I'm pleased to see we don't agree on everything. It'd be too suspect :) fare: i agree the IP causes lousy products, but i disagree that customers are forced to buy said lousy products. They still have free will and can still say "this book/OS sucks!" people need to be aware of what they depend on being ignorant is no excuse ppl r too busy to be aware busy using lousy products? then they are unobservant, too Ok. Let's imagine that in absence of proper regulation and/or education, you're not able to distinguish a good soap from a bad one. Now, there are two undistinguishable soaps, one that costs less, and one that costs more. Which do you choose? Or there are two undistinguishable soaps, one that has a brand, and one that hasn't, as approximately same price. Which do you choose? i'll buy both and see which one works better But you have no way to see which works better. You're no soap technician. sure i do, it's soap, i get clean or i dont, and i can measure how fast it gets used up unless one is sooo much better than it is obvious. <_ruiner_> abi: windows? i guess windows is a 32bit patch for a 16bit shell on an 8bit OS originally made for 4bit machines by a 2bit company that can't stand 1bit of competition then the soap is in fact probably practically identical. s/probably// only you don't have time to waste on measurements, and your usage pattern varies enough so that significant measurements would take months. that's what consumer organizations are for the choice depends on which soap had the commercial w/ the young heavy-chested chick in it the problem with government or companies is you expect other people to do things for you. When said other people actually believe it is their duty to do things for you, it becomes dangerous What I mean is that even when you're not strictly forced to buy lousy , you may be induced towards it by lousy regulations. that's why there is a need for consumer protection, which consists primarily in disseminating information so they can judge. 12:00pm so that consumer organizations may make meaningful tests at affordable cost. information about the products _must_ be available. in the case of software, the information is the source. still, consumers need to demand such information and use their buying power to get it <_ruiner_> I might need somebody's help to settle an argument <_ruiner_> what was dos based off of? There is room for governmental regulations to force producers to release information. Such regulations exist about food, cars, etc. _ruiner_: cpm-86 hcf: nope, a clone thereof. ruiner, not sure , but i think MS-DOS was stolen from QDOS which became DR-DOS then later, PC-DOS (ibm dos) was based off MS-DOS <_ruiner_> ok, but what was cpm based off of? Yup, the CPM-86 clone on which MSDOS1 was pirated was QDOS not stolen DR-DOS became Novell DOS which became Caldera OpenDOS, renamed to DR-Opendos (Drop'N'DOS!) and back to DR-DOS baught for 50,000 Quick-n-Dirty OS <_ruiner_> right....I know that.... <_ruiner_> but cpm was based off of unix.... maybe CPM-86 wasn't released at the time. don't know CPM no, CPM was loosely inspired from Unix, but also from VMS and other systems. and it was a _very_ simplified OS. meant to fit in 16KB computers, unlike those _huge_ 64KB+ computers that ran unix. it's _so_ sad that the mindset of nowadays' programmers is still crippled by infrastructure that dates back from the dark ages! -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) QDOS never became DRDOS -:- _ruiner_ [nate@t-50-209-53.dialup.wisc.edu] has joined #tunes fare; except governments are on the same side as producers, because taxes depend on sales Digital Research just modified its CPM-86 into something MS-DOS compatible. Governemnts should be the side of consumers, if they want to favor welfare instead of ruin. fare, but governments are run by money, and consumers dont have money democratic governments even more, since every voter is equally a consumer, whereas few voters have particular producer interest voters dont have producer interst, but the parties who choose who is on the ballott do <_ruiner_> ruin is good 12:10pm we need some open source figure to run for president Tril: reminds me of that page that calls for max $200 contribution per citizen (only actual voting citizen) to any electoral campaign linus Linus for prez! <_ruiner_> I was told that dos was created because the dude who wrote it was impressed with unix and decided to write his own os fare, except cheating is rewarded or maybe associate money directly to votes: he can't be prez, he hasnt lived here for 14 years people who vote pay $100 to the candidate; people who don't vote pay $200 in tax. that would encourage the government to schedule votes more often George Washington had been a citizen of the US for less than 14 years when elected president!!!! Fare: you can't get around the fact that money is inherently evil Tril: the same constitution would prevent votes. Or make contribution inversely proportional to frequency of the votes. constitutions that force government to be broke, will be broken constitutions that force governments to have total power will be broken, too. Fare: if you have an alternate model, maybe you better test that it works before recommending it. totalitarianism leads to ruin. My model is based on freedom of information. It is only information that fluidifies markets. then don't combine it with money, or it will fail -:- binEng [Anders@dialup210-4-15.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes without free information, there is no justification to free markets. free market is a utopia. Cheating at the free market is rewarded unattaibable utopia. and if people were honest enough to achieve a free market, money would be unnecessary. only free information prevents cheating money is always useful in a market! free information is precisely what makes free market work. the less free the information, the more biased the market. Hum. Shall I write my essay in french or in english??? doesn't total freedom of information contradict privacy? hm no. because freedom is freedom to use information that you have access to. it's not a right to access secret information. 12:20pm so people can protect their privacy by just avoiding to publish. how do you use the information that you have access to that says you have no money to spend in the market? of course, when an information is important to the public at large, then it is no longer a private affair * binEng/#tunes agrees with Fare Tril: if the market is useless to you, you keep your money for another usage. you invest it rather than consume. bE: thanks :) 12:30pm gotta go... bye * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] arg, bespin is slow as syrup no it isn't. Maybe your ISP (plain) sucks? Or maybe you do the same? ;) for me it's slow. Nothing else is. ...and it wasn't as slow earlier today. Prolly the distance and traffic on the way. yup. It's better to me than it was yesterday! 12:40pm -:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Beholder[ppp-004.m4-1.osh.ican.net]) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (