IRC log started Mon Jun 14 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0614 -:- intlc [mark@193.167.88.65] has joined #tunes -:- intlc [mark@193.167.88.65] has left #tunes [] -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port32.snet.net] has joined #tunes is anyone alive? 12:40am <_QZ> ya <_QZ> u should be seeing brix source sometime this week cool... do you have virtual memory done/started? <_QZ> brix doesnt use vm ahhh.... very different from how i'm going to do it.. <_QZ> because its persistent it can save objects back to the store and remove objects that havent been used in awhile from ram my os is going to be persistent, but i'm doing it differently... i figure that way before this is done, 64bit processors will be mainline, so i'm going to memory map the entire local storage.. <_QZ> well i treat ram like cache <_QZ> heh yeah... that's what i'm doing.. <_QZ> so i shouldnt expect to see yer os for atleast 10 years? umm... like a year and a half the 64bit processors will be out... give another 6months to become "standard" and another 6months to become mainline 12:50am intel plans on releasing their 64bit processor in mid y2k <_QZ> merced will be for high end machines why do you say that? <_QZ> not home PC's <_QZ> intel said so <_QZ> and besides u need a 64bit desktop OS before it can go in homes <_QZ> and that aint comming from M$ for quite some time <_QZ> the home version of win2k will be based on the win98 kernel <_QZ> cuz M$ couldnt figure out howto run home apps on the NT kernel actually i have win2k... it seems to be a cut and paste between 98 and nt4 it still won't do shit for games directx, forget it <_QZ> ya <_QZ> its upto 55+ million lines of code <_QZ> and since M$ cant get it to go games they are gonna use the win98 kernel instead of NT like planned for the homeversion yeah... i've used a few builds of nt5, and it seems that each one takes more and more win98 code... less and less nt4.. <_QZ> windows is getting so big that M$ cant port it that fast but then again if you look at win98, the version info for some of the dll's say NT5 <_QZ> ahh the thread system in brix should now be fully functional 01:00am that's cool.... are you going to use message passing? <_QZ> depends on yer definition of message passing <_QZ> a brix thread is object.method(parameters) <_QZ> its an OOP system so each method gets its own thread, in most cases <_QZ> u can fork a method or u can call a method. if u call it can be direct, in the same thread, or it will create a new thread and wait on it fork==start new thread right? <_QZ> ya <_QZ> u will have two concurrent threads running ok... that's what i thought... <_QZ> programmers dont even need to know what threads are to be able to use them, its just natural to the system <_QZ> they just make method calls and it happens <_QZ> crap i gotta crash <_QZ> cya ok... so say you have application 0 and 1 running, 0 is active... what goes on when i press the space bar for example... how does app0 get the message -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) !HyrlikW:*! Another long night at work... how lame... 01:10am !netgod:*! where o where has my t1 gone, where o where can it beeeeee... -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-232.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-160.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- smoke [smoke@7dyn182.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke is now known as evilTermCoder Term? -:- evilTermCoder is now known as smoke hehe what kind of "Term" is that? the old thing by M. O'reilly? or Terms, as in lambda-terms? avoozl/#demoscene is coding a terminal thingy with too much bells and whistles for his 3dfx :) * Fare/#Tunes doesn't imagine how "terminal" and "3dfx" can mix... eh something like an xterm yeah, but what kind of 3d can you make with letters, least it's meant to make things even more unreadable... (or perhaps your screen has a 16384x12288 resolution, so you can benefit from small 3D details on letters...) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us742.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hehe well it's mostly that he wants weird explosions when switching virtual consoles.. texturemapping lends itself for such uselessities 05:30am speak of useless coding... yep :) -:- avoozl [hive@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes oi no introduction needed :) shh :P oh epic wont compile, getting another version brb Fare: what did u request concerning 'abstract state machines'? hcf: a paper detailing the notion of "implementation" using ASMs... (if exists) 05:40am -:- SignOff avoozl: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- avoozl [hive@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes whee epic is working! -:- billyboof [hatefull@nrwc-sh5-port32.snet.net] has joined #tunes 06:00am Fare: uv seen http://www.eecs.umich.edu/gasm/ right? right and D/L'ed lots of stuff; but could not find exactly the thing I was looking for 06:10am http://www.uni-paderborn.de/fachbereich/AG/rammig/DE/gruppe/giusp/eas/papers-pl-imp.html K! http://www.cora.justresearch.com/Programming/Logic/index.html those 2 r probly misses for what u want, but may still be useful "10.0 times 0.1 is hardly ever 1.0. * Fare/#Tunes is having a good time with http://www.fredbox.com/~james/lambda.txt http://www.uni-paderborn.de/cs/asm/Available_Materials/papers.html 06:20am http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/~montages/ http://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/~asm/ASMworkshop/current/attendees.html -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-216-41.s41.tnt3.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 06:30am Fare here? yup ur html dir is mess ;) anyway did u write implement1 in latex? sure what html dir? bespin /users/fare/html the sources are in fare/fare/www/ why not use latex2html? if you try it, you'll understand why -:- avoozl [hive@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has left #tunes [] o -:- SignOff billyboof: #TUNES (hatefull@antisocial.com) 06:50am maybe those figures could be done w/o xypic... were the above urls any good? still reading lambda.txt :( addicted ;) do u have any links to Arianne rocket disaster details? sure. http://www.cnes.fr/actualites/news/rapport_501.html http://www.esrin.esa.it/htdocs/tidc/Press/Press96/ariane5rep.html thx (tell me if moved) 07:00am the 1st is a 404 ok the 2nd seems detailed enuf seing the actualites/news/, this coulda have been guest 43% of all statistics are worthless. Implementing systems is 95% boredom and 5% sheer terror. -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) The light at the end of the tunnel may be an oncoming dragon. Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious animal on earth. The only thing better than TV with the sound off is Radio with the sound off. -- Dave Moon 07:10am Editing is a rewording activity. -- Alan Perlis 07:20am When your hammer is C++, everything begins to look like a thumb. -- Steve Hoflich on compl.lang.c++ 07:30am -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup031.nni.com] has joined #tunes Save the environment. Create a closure today. -- Cormac Flanagan -:- smoke_ [smoke@passion.gimmie.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes wb smoke hoy I bet the human brain is a kluge. -- Marvin Minsky There's no sense in being precise, when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John von Neumann * Fare/#Tunes is now done w/ lambda.txt lambda lambda lambda sr: http://www.fredbox.com/~james/lambda.txt 07:50am -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup031.nni.com] has left #tunes [] .ps'es for http://www.uni-paderborn.de/fachbereich/AG/rammig/DE/gruppe/giusp/eas/papers-pl-imp.html are 404's 08:50am -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke_[passion.gimmie.tudelft.nl]) -:- smoke_ [smoke@passion.gimmie.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us742.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke_[passion.gimmie.tudelft.nl]) -:- smoke_ [smoke@passion.gimmie.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us102.javanet.com] has joined #tunes Fare: here? yup the papers that were 404s r probly here: ftp://ftp.di.unipi.it/pub/Papers/boerger/ 10:50am k may something good refered to here: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/~dlb/refs.html, if they r 404s, tell me which ones u want and i'l try to find em 11:00am abi: new? rumour has it new is failing at ftp://ftp.gte.com/pub/m3/notes/When-NEW-fails.txt 11:10am -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp147.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes <_ruiner_> whats the dilly yo? <_ruiner_> abi: tunes? well, tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers 11:30am -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System (www.tunes.org) || Softpanorama (http://www.softpanorama.org/index.shtml) * hcf/#tunes is away. -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) !asimov.openprojects.net!! Received :irc.linux.com SERVER carter.openprojects.net from irc.linux.com !?! -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- binEng [Anders@dialup43-1-5.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes hoy binEng hoy hoy! binEng: sup? 01:20pm a little programming 01:30pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-233-253.s634.tnt8.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-052.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes Hey all om oh hmm 02:40pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us102.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us322.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-052.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-052.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-253.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey wat hey all om 03:00pm it's amazing. the soft panorama site has a quote about utility, yet promotes all sorts of lame software and languages. Wat: Money talks I guess :) but it's an open-source site. wat: That makes absolutly no sense then... oh well, it was just one quote, anyway wat: What was the quote? That action is best which procures the greatest happiness for the greatest numbers Francic Hutcheson (1649-1746) wat: Just out of curiosity, what kind of setup are you running right now (OS wise)? 03:10pm win98 still i'm too busy with research to install linux for now wat: Yes, it is very time consuming :) you know, i may be the first person to ever have installed linux while at sea. even if i removed it later wat: Hmm... musta been rockin... hehehe :) wat: How large was the ship you were on? beh: aircraft carrier i help run the reactor plants wat: What specifically do you do with them? i do maintenance on the electrical generators, motors, circuit breakers, transformers, and the reactor relate instrumentation wat: are you an EE? right now, i run the calibration program and some of our equipment maintenance analysis software beh: not an engineer, a technician. => very little admin for me :) 03:20pm wat: :) So what kind of things have to be monitored in a nuclear reactor? umm. neutron population, temp's, press's flow rates currents, voltages, wattages, ground resistances wat: What kind of PLC's do they use? rate-of-power-change, power beh: no PLC's :( wat: big ol' DCS? beh: the nuclear navy isn't into automation unless necessary DCS? what's dcs? wat: Distributed control system... a real "multi-tasking" computer that does hundreds of thousands of discrete I/O and Analoge I/O (more Analoge I think) -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (cya...) no, no centralized computerization at all wat: Reliability issues? the only cpu's we have are for instruments themselves beh: yep beh: although the program that i work in will help change that wat: Ahh... just curious... I program DCS's and PLC's for a living. Just wondering if there was work to be had! ;) beh: ok. sorry, no work for you here beh: That's ok... I've only worked in Automotive and Pulp and Paper... so I'm probably not qualified for the US Navy (I think not being IN the navy... or a US citizen would probably make it impossible :) 03:30pm wat: So what kind of program are you working in to promote automation? beh: it automates a lot of our paperwork, especially for maintenance, as well as systematizing our equipment trend analysis, so that we can minimize the amount of maintenance that we have to do. beh: by bypassing the control hierarchy. :) wat: By bringing computers on board? ;) (watch out, they don't like water :) hehe beh: we already have four LANs on the ship. beh: and about three thousand of us have portable e-mail accounts. wat: Wow, what does the Navy run for NOS's? winNT :( i don't know what our mainframes run, though. wat: If... no WHEN thoese things crash, you're gonna sink... or worse... you're gonna bomb Canada... beh: none of the critical systems use NT; they have unix for those. beh: they also aren't on the main LAN wat: Phew... makes me feel better :) Canada is still safe... wat: What kind of aircraft does the carrier hold? -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.247] has joined #Tunes f14's, f18's, e2c's, ea6b's, ch60's and s2's Is there such a thing as online college-level courses in math? kauf: sure kauf: they're not common, though. water: where? wat: I took college math... it was terrible... :) kauf: hell if i know beh: i quit college while i was getting A's in diff eq's in my freshman year. so there! :) 03:40pm I'm a math geek, but I'm still high school-level, which is nowhere near enough to do what I want to do. i'm one of the few dropouts who spent too much time in the library and on the computer networks wat: It was called "Computer Math" ... no joke... It was a horrible course on how to convert HEX to Binary... uggh.... I think the only thing I learned was 2 hours is a damn long time ... heheh kauf: i taught myself advanced mathematics with Dover books. :) i wonder if Dover has a website? water: where did you go to college? kauf: Texas A&M :( i had a full scholarship to MIT, but legal problems nixed that. wat: Legal problems? water: I'm /seriously/ considering MIT, but is it possible to get a scolarship /and/ financial aid? (since I'm nowhere near the US) beh: i have a trust fund which specifies use for state-funded institutions only. it dissolves at the same time that i leave the navy. beh: indeed, there is method to my madness. :) Because I'm truly broke and not willing to pay for college, or while in college at all. kauf: sure, but you'd better be a bright and hard-working person Kauf: I think you're best bet is it find some good books on the subject, and you can teach yourself... kauf: you should also be able to deal with mit culture, which is often arrogant and strange You betcha. I'm 2 years early in school, although that means very little. And I'm also arrogant and strange. But if there's one good thing about Brazil, it's the school curriculum. Obligatory high school math and physics here match US "honours" courses, from what I've heard. cool. * water/#tunes was turned on to mathematics by a geometry teacher who taught non-Euclidean geometry and formal constructivism in proofs. 03:50pm Unfortunately, the school I'm at right now doesn't quite match my expectations. I plan on changing schools next semester; the one I intend to get into is very good, has the country's best university acceptance rates, and has a credit system in the senior year. * water/#tunes 's mind wanders to tunes. sorry go ahead, I know I'm boring :) it's ok. i'm trying to refine my idea of ontological relativism ontologies could form a security system, i relaized today "everything he says must be checked against ..." "except if he says ___" then, you're defining user-identity by the ability to reproduce a code but, fingerprint devices or retina-recognizers are communication as well and therefore, arrows. ontologies in the standard literature are text-based and, therefore, consume too much space per information atom a system of ontologies based on the arrow system would abandon this required information bloat 04:00pm damn! how do i formalize this stuff? I have no idea. * water/#tunes decides to just keep thinking about this. keep talking about whatever, guys. Whatever is not that interesting. 04:10pm hmm kauf: what do you think an ontology is? -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-79.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes I don't think I can define it. whattup my sons of bitches? :) kauf: informally hi hs y0 Actually, the whole idea is really vague in my mind. :( kauf: ever spoken to someone whose mind couldn't be changed about something? -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-052.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] kauf: that person would have a static ontology uh? kauf: an ontology is like what a person believes to exist, for example abi: ontology? i heard ontology was a statement of a logical theory in some domain okie. hmm not good enough kauf: an ontology is also what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world okay, water. 04:20pm doh! abi: ontology? ontology is a statement of a logical theory in some domain or what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world hmm. maybe that will work kauf: make sense to you? I guess. well, does it sound like a natural thing or something strange and convoluted? #2, definitely. Then again, I'm not used to the language. damnit i wish someone would just plain help me with these syscalls what about #2, the provable stuff? that "provable" word means the things that a person would believe, given the appropriate conversation that builds up to a final statement. "something strange and convoluted" < #2 yeah, I understood that ok what does < mean? "<" < input redirection hehe kauf: explain, please Gotta go now... bye -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein) oh, bye. 04:30pm bwahaha im helping someone with linux how ironic indeed -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hi qz luckily it's just using rawrite <_QZ> hello :) hi qz hs: who are you helping? some guy on efnet oh i always help im not like fare (punk) yes, you are not like him. :) and, yes, you are a punk. :D nah :| 04:40pm -:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (Ping timeout for HickServ[209-68-229-79.dialup.cust.tfb.com]) -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-79.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes wb hs hi damn some guy is screwed he has a nice comp but a shot floppy drive wow what are other ways to put on linux? i have a bootable cd-rom drive and a redhat install cd can you boot from cd? i can, yes do you have two cd roms? i have a laptop, though, with an atapi-style removable drive hs: two drives? no. redhat distrib has three cds. how then? to put on redhat? how what? the first cd installs the system the next two are apps. oh well what do you set up something with bios to let it boot? bios has options for that, but the cd-rom is checked for a bootable volume after the floppy by default. 05:00pm i can change that, too. so what how can this guy boot the redhat cd without a floppy? hs: HIS COMPUTER BIOS MUST BE ABLE TO BOOT FROM THE CD. ok hs: otherwise, he can install from the net but, that requires some extensive downloads after he sets up bios what does he do? put in the redhat cd? yes. and reboot -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup633.nni.com] has joined #tunes hi sr hi i'm trying to find out how to implement an OS without a kernel i have played with the idea of a system of trusted apps where each app ran in kernel mode and had access to OS libs that allowed it to bypass a kernel but then i thought about multiuser sr: what about cooperative memory-sharing? and it couldn't happen if you have untrusted users 05:10pm water: explain how you could implement NoKernel NoKernel is kinda hard sr: i'm not a systems programmer, but i have studied the stuff how exactly does NoKernel plan to be implemented what exactly is NoKernel i understand ExoKernel there is still a small kernel in exokernel i think you need to give apps device driver mode priority don't go as far as kernel hickserv: that's what i believe ExoKernel to be but wtf is NoKernel? and how is "Clementine" nokernel? yes sr: one idea is to have nothing but modules interacting, and have the compiler automatically include code for cooperative module-management water: what if someone compiles an evil program with an evil compiler and then runs it on your system sr: that's true of every OS. sr: i could easily write a hacker's compiler. you obviously can't have something checking it each time, or it would be too slow sr: no, but you can distribute the function of the kernel. water: what exactly would the hacker's compiler do that a regular compiler wouldn't? screw something up but in conventional OSes you have processor memory protection, I/O protection, etc sr: i could write a compiler that bypassed mman.h 's restrictions, for instance water: explain sr: well, you could look at memory restrictions as firewalls sr: and bypass the firewalls since they use a low-level encoding sr: keep in mind, i've never done such a thing. -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup633.nni.com]) -:- s_rr [s_rr@phila-dialup570.nni.com] has joined #tunes my HD crashed it crashed right after you said "you can look at memory restrictions as firewalls" hehehe ok. i'll recap water explain. it has a mind hickserv: huh? and you could bypass firewalls since they use a low-level encoding bypass network firewalls? keep in mind, though, that i haven't tried this bypass the memory protection firewalls via pipes what do the memory restrictions do? because, if i'm right the processor restricts memory access why would some compiler header file have to do that? they prevent one process from addressing another app's memory but, there is paging 05:20pm but paging is transparent to the process and in paging the app only is allowed to access what is in its memory address space exactly what does this header file do? it just sets up the magic numbers to make the program work. paging es mucho bueno :) paging sucks, because it's determined by a kernel which knows nothing about what's best for the program explain all your thinking, i have no idea what "magic numbers" are and why the kernel doesn't know what's best for the process * water/#tunes sighes ok forget the magic numbers forget the paging stuff the point is that you can spawn a process and send data to it that manipulates it to do what you want. the process is basically an interpreter for the byte-codes you send it well my kernel type does what's best for the user :) gotta run later hs: bullshit -:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-79.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has left #tunes [] water i have an idea for an OS ok tell me well i'll have each process be divided into two threads and it will be based on each process no kernel one thread will be kernel level thread one will be user level thread and each process will work together with the other ?? kernel-level thread? oh, ok 05:30pm for a _no-kernel_ system! :) i want to get away from a centralized kernel right the problem is that you need something to be between the process one problem and the hardware so i was thinking of that trusted system and perhaps an "un-trusted" app