IRC log started Fri Apr 30 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0430
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations ella!" :-)
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<AlonzoTG> om
08:00am
!sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT devlin.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
!sterling.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT devlin.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
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<Fare> what's wrong with bespin.cx?
10:30am
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-:- Alexie11 has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: HëLþþþþþ ¡ çåÑ'† S†øþ ë冡Ñg ç®üÑçh müÑçh Søøø gøøÐ!!
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<binEng> What is abi doing in #tunes_test?
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11:30am
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<CONEJITA> hi
[CONEJITA(jepa@168.234.36.133)] hola
11:50am
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Looks like some uunet problems.  Hopefully transitory.  Thanks for your patience.
<Tril> hello
<CONEJITA> tril hello
<Tril> what's up
<Tril> I'm doing well
<Tril> what do you know about the TUNES project?
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<Tril> hi, Bin!
12:00pm
<binEng> hi
<abi> hoy, binEng
<binEng> shut up abi
-:- Tril has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: http://tunes.org - project for a reflective computing system. Read the new Arrow Draft at http://www.tunes.org/files/papers/
<binEng> Tril, it wasn't very nice to advise me to buy GEB. I had too much to do already before AI caught my mind.
<Tril> uhh
<Tril> you're welcome.
<Tril> perhaps you will learn to manage your time.
<binEng> what time?
<abi> time is 12:02:06 1999
<Tril> (i've always had trouble with that)
<binEng> gee
<Tril> it's noon!
<binEng> Now, abi is the first thing I'll change when I invent strong AI
<Tril> if you are interested in AI, Brian would say you should read the Arrow paper.
<binEng> Did you hear that, abi?!
<Tril> abi, get a life
<binEng> He'd say that anyway.
<binEng> Would you say I should?
<Tril> you should read the paper anyway, yes.
<Tril> I'm still not finished.
<Tril> see how much of it you can understand.
<binEng> will do... later.
<Tril> are you in high school?
<binEng> that's a question that's harder than it might seem...
<Tril> do you have a high school diploma?
<Tril> and are you working on getting one? :)
<binEng> we don't use the same names over here, and I've never really figured out what corresponds to what, but I'll begin higher studies the next term.
<binEng> university
<Tril> oh, ok
<binEng> or something :P
<Tril> I thought maybe you were outside the traditional education system, doing independent study or something. I did that for a while.
<binEng> Could that lead to anything?
<Tril> but you just have a different school system.
<binEng> yepers
<Tril> Well, I was at a private high school that was more individual based. But I wasn't motivated enough so I swithced to Running Start, a program to get high school credit for going to community college (junior college)
12:10pm
<binEng> seems complicated
<Tril> it's cool, because you get a year of high school credit for one quarter at community college. Plus you still get the college credit.
<Tril> they treat you with more respect at the college.
* binEng/#tunes shakes his head
12:20pm
<binEng> ping?
<abi> pong!
<binEng> SHUTUP ABI
<binEng> abi: die
01:00pm
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* Tril/#TUNES is here
<binEng> Tril, do you know how I can interface internet protocols from a high level in C++? any other language?
!varley.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT king.openprojects.net 8001 from doogie
<Tril> well, in just about any system, you can access internet protocols by reading and writing a file.
<Tril> If you know how to read and write files, doing network stuff is not much more difficult.
<binEng> really?? Under Windows too?
<Tril> sure
01:10pm
<binEng> so, how do I do? Link some special library in, or what?
<Tril> I'm not the one to ask.
<Tril> Do you want to learn network programming in Windows? Then look for an introduction to network programming for Windows. Ask someone in #winprog on efnet, or search the web.
<Tril> sorry I can't help
<binEng> Actually, I'm not that interesting in general network programming. I just want to interface IRC from within C++
<AlonzoTG> Dr Dos looks kule..
<AlonzoTG> I just wish it had SMP support :|
<Tril> ATG: I think you need to spend more time with Unix, to get over your initial confusion and get familiar with it.
<Tril> ATG: Usually people come into contact with Unix, then go away for a few months.  But they go back.  You should.
<Tril> bin: hmm
<Tril> bin: yo want to program a bot?
<binEng> bots do just that, but they're written in perl or something
<binEng> something like that
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<Tril> bin: Look for an irc bot already programmed in C++.  And read the source.
<Tril> a lot of bots are written in perl, but there are bots in every language
<binEng> ok
<Tril> but actually not that many bots are for Windows. That might be hard to find.
!xing.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT lu.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
<binEng> I thought that an AI could be interfaced with by IRC. Whadda say?
<Tril> But if there was one good bot for windows, I'd be it would be in C++.
<Tril> Then again, there's a 50/50 chance it would not have public source.
<binEng> :P
<Tril> that's what bots are.. AIs on IRC.
<binEng> no, that's not what I'd call AI. Bots are usually not sentient...
<binEng> I am, of course, referring to some more specific meaning of AI
<Tril> there are some rumors of programs that may have achieved sentience. But they are just rumors. Any AI sufficiently advanced is a target for a government coverup.
<binEng> Naa, d'ya think?
<Tril> the most valuable AI would be one that was programmed to kill
<Tril> ok, what's your meaning of Ai
01:20pm
<binEng> Right now I mean some more strict interpretation, systems that are now programmed in detail for every situation. The definition isn't that easy, but you know what I mean anyway, don't you.
!mccaffrey.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT drexelhill.pa.us.opirc.nu 8005 from lilo
<binEng> I don't see how AIs could be that dangerous unless they were actually a good bit smarter than humans. AND had physical possibilities.
<Tril> computer viruses are dangerous, and they're not smart
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> bin:
<AlonzoTG> deze d00dz say that I need to brush up on the basicks. :P
<binEng> Tril: In such case, computerized AIs would be as dangerous as computer viruses, which *I* don't see as such a threat.
<Tril> GMOL said that. I think you need a lot more than just basics.
<binEng> AlonzoTG, are you implying anythin??
<Tril> ATG is interested in creating the cybernetic organism. yo might say AI was one of his fav subjects
<binEng> AlonzoTG: How should I interpret your last line?
<Tril> atg: was there an emphasis on the "I" in that sentence?
<binEng> I wonder that too
<AlonzoTG> hmm
<AlonzoTG> dunno
<AlonzoTG> anyway..
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<Tril> ATG: Were you suggesting that BinEng needs to brush up on basics too?
<AlonzoTG> speakofthedevil! :>
<AlonzoTG> no
<AlonzoTG> There is nothing wrong with bin...
01:30pm
* binEng/#tunes bows and thanks
<GMOL> Alonzo, I checked the logs...are you clear on what I meant by what basics you have to learn?
<AlonzoTG> you mentioned IPC, and a few other things...
<GMOL> so do you know these things well or not?  you asked "What basics don't I understand" just before I left.
<AlonzoTG> I know about synchronization but I am not sure quite how to achieve a data transfer...
<GMOL> well before you go out to make an OS, even claim that you are going to make one, you need to undestand them well enough...
<AlonzoTG> I would need to somehow communicate with the kernel to request the transfer...
<AlonzoTG> anyway...
<GMOL> well these are all well explored issues in shared memory, message passing, pipes etc..answers to questions you haven't even though of are out there in the books
<AlonzoTG> I HAVE READ THE BOOKS.
<GMOL> then you'll be able to ask questions that haven't already been answered
<AlonzoTG> THEY TALK ABOUT SYNCHRONIZATION AND SYNCHRONIZATION ONLY!!!!
<Tril> atg: that's because communication is so easy
<GMOL> No they don't the adress message passing, shared mem too...read carefully
<Tril> atg: well, it's also because it requires a separate book
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is only 1 wit smarter than the CPU that needs 3,000 instructions to draw a box...
<GMOL> Tanenebaum's bookhas that stuff in it...see you really haven't read the books..
<Tril> you can use shared memory, or pipes or sockets, or regular files
<AlonzoTG> :/
<GMOL> DO you agree with me yet?
<AlonzoTG> that i need to study?
<AlonzoTG> NO
<Tril> i'm in a class called Concurrency, Communication, and Multithreading
<AlonzoTG> I HAVE STUDIED
<AlonzoTG> for years and years.
<Tril> we write threads programs for win32 and solaris
<GMOL> Fine..then propose me a strategy for transferrring data from one process memory space to another
<GMOL> on the intel architecture
<GMOL> for arguments sake
01:40pm
<AlonzoTG> =/
<GMOL> what's that supposed to mean?
<AlonzoTG> Currently I am studying the process of software development...
<Tril> hehe
<GMOL> so am I correct in understanding that you can't answer my question?
<AlonzoTG> I'm not even in the mood to even think about that untill I have a linking loader to load the said process into their respective memory spaces...
<Tril> ATG: what about Clementine?
<GMOL> You are making excuses
<AlonzoTG> then I'll speculate on how they will talk..
<AlonzoTG> I remember hearing about clementine but I can't remember anything more...
<Tril> oh yueah, it's not released to you.
<AlonzoTG> Look: since when have I said I'm not lame
<AlonzoTG> ?
<Tril> ATG: Well, it has a module system and it boots up and loads modules, and resolves their dependencies, like what you mean by linking. 
<AlonzoTG> nice
<AlonzoTG> :)
<GMOL> Before they can be loaded into their respective memory spaces you mem model means to be organized
<Tril> ATG: No, it's not released to anybody, except me, Fare and tcn
<GMOL> Tril...why?
<Tril> wait, I don't have it either
<GMOL> ok......
<Tril> GMOL: Core has to make completely sure his company will let him release it under the GPL before he will release it.
<GMOL> Do you have your mem model organized ALonzo?
<GMOL> give me a break....what functionality has he impliemtned so far?
<AlonzoTG> REAL MODE!!!
<GMOL> Alonzo...not only is real mode useless for a xtaksing env...you still have to setup how processes are going to see memory even in real mode...and how does your model look so far?
<AlonzoTG> what kind of os am I making right now?
<AlonzoTG> Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing?
<Tril> a prototype!
<GMOL> I don't know....for you to have an "OS prototype"  it has to do something Alonzo...am apple is not an OS without memory protection and multitasking
<GMOL> just what do you intend on implementing
<AlonzoTG> a prototype!
01:50pm
<GMOL> Tril what has clementime impliment so far?
<GMOL> what sort of things will your prototype have?
<AlonzoTG> A number of various things...
<Tril> I have an old version of clementine, with keyboard, text console output, memory management, a module loader, a cpu (interrupts handling) module, and some tricky stuff to boot up
<Tril> because all the parts are implemented as clementine modules
<GMOL> like?
* binEng/#tunes is downloading Eggdrop
<Tril> bin: is there Eggdrop for windows?
<binEng> no :(
<Tril> gmol, i'm not sure exactly, but apparently it was very hard to get the system bootstrapped so that basic system modules, such as the CPU and memory modules, could be loaded up.
<AlonzoTG> yep
<AlonzoTG> I'm seenig the same thing...
<AlonzoTG> my solution is to integrate a semi-functional System Loader into the kernel...
<GMOL> the kenrel is just responsible for xtasking..you cant integrate a "system loader" (whatever that is) into one.
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<AlonzoTG> then I'm screwed =)
<AlonzoTG> hehe
<Tril> GMOL, you're so negative
<AlonzoTG> But I don't care, All I care about is that I need a linker to make it work...
02:00pm
<_QZ> oh man u guys started the "bash alonzo conversation" without me :(
<AlonzoTG> welcome qzx
<AlonzoTG> :)
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is unbashable!
<AlonzoTG> :)
<GMOL> Alonzo..all you're function bodies are empty...
<AlonzoTG> I know :(
<GMOL> ther is no code there
<_QZ> tell me where u live and ill bring my bat and we'll find out
<Tril> at least it's not just empty subdirectories now?
<AlonzoTG> I'm working on that independantly...
<_QZ> GMOL: that is what he calls maximum compression :)
<AlonzoTG> virginia...
<AlonzoTG> that's a good one, do you have any more lies? they're funny =)
<GMOL> Alonzo...just what and wheere have you studied?
<GMOL> For years and years as you say so often
<AlonzoTG> books, many many books.
<_QZ> GMOL: the virginia school of gay men
<GMOL> Well it doesn't show..you don't have the simplest knowledge of the basics
<AlonzoTG> usually late at night I'll pull one out, and stare at it untill I fall asleep in it...
<AlonzoTG> and the basics are?????????
<Tril> exactly
<_QZ> GMOL: they were all little womens books :)
<_QZ> GMOL: and playgirl mags
<AlonzoTG> qzx : you really know how to cross the line...
<_QZ> why thank u :)
<binEng> Eggdrop is uncomprehensible
<GMOL> I'll prove it to you.....how can two processes communicate between one another?
<AlonzoTG> at least I'm on-topic...
<AlonzoTG> IPC! :)
<GMOL> Two specific strategies
<binEng> AlonzoTG: I'm on MY topic
<AlonzoTG> just make the stupid ipc call and it happens, just POOF!!!
<AlonzoTG> :)
<_QZ> what ipc call
<GMOL> be serious
<AlonzoTG> If I could find my mind, I would be.
<_QZ> AlonzoTG: does it hurt to have 2, maybe 3, ppl bashing u instead of just me?
<GMOL> Alonzo...answer the question..you imply that you know something about OS's...this is the equivalent of 2+2=4 in arithmetic
<AlonzoTG> what is hurt?
<_QZ> hurt is something felt by those with brains
<AlonzoTG> look, goddamn it... you just call int fucking 21h and it all happens!
<_QZ> i dont think so
<GMOL> I am not bashing, I want to help Alonzo understand that he has a LOT more learning to do, and if he wants to  he can
<GMOL> Come on Alonzo...admit that you don't know the basics of OS's
<GMOL> these are VERY simple questions
<AlonzoTG> I DON'T CARE!!!
<GMOL> how can you not know them if you studied years and years?
<AlonzoTG> because my braine is too small...
<AlonzoTG> :(((
<GMOL> no..you are making excuses...you haven't tried hard enough....first thing I think it is fair you do is that you admit that you are lacking the fundamentals here
<_QZ> atleast he knows that his brain is way too small
<AlonzoTG> That isn't what is slowing me down though!
<_QZ> as long as u are in denial u cant receive help
<AlonzoTG> :P
02:10pm
<AlonzoTG>  I AM TOTALLY CLUELESS,  Are you happy yet?
<AlonzoTG> Now help me hack a loader...
<AlonzoTG> nah...
<AlonzoTG> not worth it...
<AlonzoTG> :|
<AlonzoTG> =) /me just had a brainestorm...
<GMOL> To say that not understnading OS design isn't slowing you down in OS design doesn't make a lot of sense al
<_QZ> its "brain" not "braine"
<smkl> what lame windows trojan is 27910?
<AlonzoTG> King George spelt it braine, so do I
<AlonzoTG> :)
<AlonzoTG> think about it a little...
<_QZ> not only was he an illiterate but he was also gay
<AlonzoTG> the more you do, the closer you get to my state of dementia...
<AlonzoTG> whatever you say, qzx...
<GMOL> Alonzo, you said you read Tananenbaum's book..that's not really true now is it?
<_QZ> GMOL: affirmative
<GMOL> Can he admit it though?
<GMOL> Aand don't say that you've studied years and years..you haven't, at least in OS design
<_QZ> he was studied the fine art of masturbation for years and years
<AlonzoTG> I read stalling's book
<_QZ> s/was/has/
<_QZ> reading and comprehending are two totally different things
<GMOL> Well if you really read it...it didn't taech you much about OS's...are you in a university?
<_QZ> i would love to stay here and bash alonzo but i must finish brix so it can be released tomorrow
<_QZ> beep me if u need me
02:20pm
<GMOL> Anyway I must go to...Alonzo, I don't mean to pick on you, but you really are lying to yourself if you think you can design an OS, or even give valuble input to design issues....please don't say stuff like "I am going to make a prototype OS...", when you haven't learned the simple stuff...It doesn't take a genius to know when someone is lying...so don't do it.  In the meantime, learn more...there are lots of books/code you can read out there...look it up..it's time b
<GMOL> Knowledge is something that is gained with just a pich of humility and perseverance.
<GMOL> Waiting till I go to give a response?  Sheesh.
-:- SignOff GMOL: #TUNES (Leaving)
02:30pm
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[dialup94-4-41.swipnet.se])
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<AlonzoTG> =\
<_QZ> hello ie
<Iepos> greetings QZ
<AlonzoTG> y0
<Tril> hi ie
<Tril> June :)
<Iepos> heh heh
<Iepos> i need to fix my email client
<Iepos> for some reason i am telnetting to my ISP and using elm there...
<Tril> i use pine on my machine or on the tunes server
<Tril> that's about 2 people now who called you June on the list
<Tril> your mom is going to be famous :)
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<Iepos> oops, i got disconnected from my ISP for some reason.
<AlonzoTG> topick?
<Tril> ATG: what?
-:- _QZ has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: bash alonzo
<Tril> ATG is it true you used to be a member of the Freedows project?
<AlonzoTG> no
<AlonzoTG> not interested in windoze at all.
<Tril> ok
02:50pm
<_QZ> this sucks, i downloaded a 19meg file last night but my hdd filled up after 13meg received
<Iepos> :-(
<_QZ> some moron made my /home too small is there anyway to move space from /usr to /home? :)
<_QZ> is it possible to merge 2 partitions into a single directory?
<Tril> hello testing
<AlonzoTG> df much?
<Tril> yes, the multi-disk driver can do that
<_QZ> and that is in which kernel?
<Tril> yours :)
<Tril> if you enable the option
<Tril> when you configure it
<Iepos> Tril, have you finished reading brian's arrow draft?
<_QZ> 2.0.34?
<Tril> hold on i'll check
<Tril> well, it's in 2.0.36. In the Floppy, IDE and other block devices section, there is an option for Multiple devices driver support.
<Tril> it's a Y/N question (no module)
<Tril> iepos: not quite
<Tril> i'm 3/4 through
<Iepos> yeah, me too... i still have to read back through parts i skipped over the first time
<Iepos> i feel like i need to read the whole thing again, though, because i almost totally forgot what it said :-)
03:00pm
<_QZ> would i be able to use this without formatting?
<Tril> _QZ: yes
<Tril> there's an option to just concatenate to partitions together, that are already formatted
<_QZ> if the other drive i want to append is a dos partition do i have to format the /home also?
<_QZ> oh wait nevermind
<_QZ> would i have to format to use the raid-0? :)
03:10pm
<Tril> i didn't try it i'm not sure
<Tril> read the Software-RAID mini-HOWTO
<Tril> and the Multi-Disk HOWTO if you need to
<_QZ> will do thanks
<Tril> linux/Documentation/md.txt gives a short example of booting parm and that's it
<_QZ> do u know what kernel supports the joliet fs?
03:20pm
<Tril> I think they added joliet in 2.1
<_QZ> crap
<Tril> it's part of the iso9660 module
<Tril> you can disable it with mount -o nojoliet
<Tril> there's a patch for earlier
<Tril> well, i can look
<_QZ> ill have to get that
<Tril> err, joliet.c is in 2.0.36
<_QZ> maybe ill get .36
<Tril> it's not in 34?
<Tril> what's wrong with 2.2?
<Tril> 37 is out i think
<Tril> any day now, if not
<_QZ> hmm, it is in .34
<_QZ> i had to download and upgrade tons of shit when i upgraded my server from 2.0.33 to 2.1.x
<_QZ> i dont wanna do it again :)
<Tril> try upgrading libc
<_QZ> have u?
<_QZ> upgraded it, not reinstalled
<Tril> no. I reinstalled, using debian instaed of slack.
<Tril> debian can do it though
<Tril> usually
<_QZ> i heard nasty things about upgrading from libc5 to glibc
03:30pm
<_QZ> is it possible to put passwords on cdroms?
03:50pm
<Iepos> fare, are you here?
<_QZ> "call circuit closed" what is that? telco got tired of me being on the phone or what?
04:00pm
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[MCCI.rdyn.saunalahti.fi])
<AlonzoTG> om
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05:00pm
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<GMOL> anybody here?
<GMOL> GMOL?
<abi> well, GMOL is assuming you want a linker to help you develop my OS, no?
<GMOL> Tril?
<abi> i heard Tril was a security person. for tunes, though ,not unix ;)
<GMOL> Iepos?
<abi> it has been said that Iepos is having a problem
<GMOL> smkl?
<GMOL> ^lilo?
<GMOL> AlonzoTG?
<abi> i think AlonzoTG is their agent
<GMOL> tcn?
<abi> tcn is gone. or doing his project for his own education.
<GMOL> weird.......anyone?
<GMOL> abi?
<abi> yes, GMOL?
<GMOL> Tunes?
<abi> Tunes is in my head or tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system. or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system or to programming languages what the internet is to computer networks.
<GMOL> ?
<GMOL> ??
<GMOL> ???
05:20pm
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<_QZ> kewl, there is gonna be a shooting at the junior high near me
<_QZ> this tuesday
<_QZ> gonna be bigger than the one in colorado
<_QZ> all mormons, mexicans, ppl with glasses and fat ppl will be shot
<_QZ> thats about 90% of the 1200 students
06:10pm
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<GMOL> anyone here?
<GMOL> cmon alonzo I know you're hiding...
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07:20pm
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<AlonzoTG> bak
<AlonzoTG> om
07:40pm
<GMOL> alonzo do you know what om means?
<AlonzoTG> I'm meditating on my lameness.
<AlonzoTG> Quite a bit of lameness to ponder, don't you think?
<GMOL> Alonzo...you won't get sympathy from me...don't be so openly self depreciative...it won't get you far.
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<GMOL> so do you know what om means?
<AlonzoTG> Its some hindu meditation thing...
<AlonzoTG> like the body, mind, spirit kind of thing...
<AlonzoTG> anyway..
<AlonzoTG> So what do you want to talk about?
<AlonzoTG> (anything but IPC :)
07:50pm
<GMOL> Cmon..give me a specific def..
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<JudgeRR> hola
<AlonzoTG> I'm not LogicLord, He is the master of om, I picked up the habit form Adverb... 
<AlonzoTG> :P
<JudgeRR> hello
<AlonzoTG> y0
<AlonzoTG> :)
<AlonzoTG> What can we do for yous?
<GMOL> I'll explain it to you sometime...did you do any extra reading yet>
<GMOL> ?
<AlonzoTG> yeah, I havn't been studying OS for about 6 months...
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<AlonzoTG> It feels good to be back in the groove again. It's beginning to come back to me...
<GMOL> good...
<GMOL> BTW om isn't a greeting, and really shouldn't be used as such.
<AlonzoTG> the reason why I hadn't been studying OS is because about 6 months ago I finalized the design of my prototype and went on to studying how to implement it...
<AlonzoTG> hey, it works for me! =)
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-:- AlonzoTG has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: om  (1788): a mantra consisting of the sound \`om\ and used in contemplation of ultimate reality.
08:00pm
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0501
IRC log ended Sat May  1 00:00:00 1999