IRC log started Mon Jan 11 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0111
12:10am
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<tcn> Hey
<tcn> Are any of you really here?
<Fare> no
<Fare> I'm a bot from Mars
<tcn> haha
<tcn> What do you think about Brian's arrow system, so far?
<Fare> I've lost the conversation more than one month ago
<Fare> I'm now backing up
<Fare> what do you think of my article?
<tcn> Oh, it clears up what metaprogramming and reflection are.
<Fare> thanks
<tcn> However, I'm still reading it. A little each day.. :)
<Fare> oh :(
<tcn> Well I'm trying to fit it in with programming, and lots of other stuff
<Fare> note that I usually agree with what Tril says, except when he (mis)quotes me
<tcn> haha.. like what?
<tcn> Did he say something in particular?
<Fare> As Fare always says, "if we don't support it, someone
<Fare> else will add it in the system, and make our system useless." 
<tcn> in reference to?
<Fare> I don't remember thinking or saying that.
<tcn> The other day he said you don't like Smalltalk's object system (because it's not functional?).. correct?
11:10am
<Fare> What I said that if we *don't* support something, but someone else CAN add it to our system, then it's fine, and if someone needs that feature, he can add it. But if our system is not expressive enough to allow the feature being added, then our system
<Fare> will be useless to them.
<Fare> tcn: the functional and the object system aspects are independent
<tcn> hehe.. that thing about it being useless was a bit out of context :)
<Fare> anyway, CommonLISP does everything better than Smalltalk
<Fare> (which does not remove interest from an integrated Smalltalk implementation like Squeak)
<tcn> ahh yeah, I still have to check out CLOS
ωνω core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #TUNES
<tcn> hello core
<Fare> core: t'y zone!
>>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250090.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 916082069 from #tunes
11:20am
<tcn> core, I saw you were talking to QZ last night about virtual memory & persistent storage.. I'm wondering about the same thing..
<tcn> I would like to take advantage of paging hardware, but there's a 4 GB limit, which complicates matters..
<core> desole, j'etais occupe a glander :)
<core> re everyone :)
<core> hi tcn, fare :)
<tcn> welcome back :)
<core> thanks :)
<tcn> did you catch that, about VM?
<core> tcn: i just think that qz's policy of displaying "buy more ram" when too many components must remain in central memory is dumb :)
<tcn> yeah
<core> tcn: yep, i was just away (girlfriend sent an NMI again)
<tcn> hehe
<core> tcn: you have never programmed PL 3 code did you?
<core> s/did/have/
<tcn> IOPL 3? Under Linux, I guess ;)
<core> well, just ring 3 code in general ;) i meant, under your own system :-)
<tcn> ok
<tcn> No, I haven't yet
<core> darn.. oh well :)
<tcn> why do you ask?
11:30am
<core> well, i am finishing the implementation of usermode, everything is in place basically, so i just tried "returning" to ring 3, and it reboots the system every time. all exceptions etc are trapped, so i don't know what i miss
<tcn> hmm, double fault, right?
<core> that's what i think yeah
<tcn> Do you have multiple tasks?
<core> not in my test
<core> but there is a valid TSS
<core> i didn't even try gating back to ring 0; it crashes right when returning to PL 3
<tcn> How do you return to PL 3?
<core> i push an user eip, an user selector, eflags (0), an user esp, an user stack selector, and do an iretd
<core> (well, i push them the other way around)
<tcn> hmm.. that's how I call the BIOS in V86..
<core> maybe it's related to paging, i have no idea what's going wrong tho
<tcn> So the IRETD pops EIP, CS, EFLAGS.. 
<core> is this exactly what you're doing?
<core> right
<tcn> Those 3 things need to be on top of the stack when you do the IRETD
<core> they are.. and followed by an ESP, SS pair, required as i return to a lower privilege level
<core> (well, higher numerically)
<tcn> makes sense
<Fare> core: my 0.0.0.25 code did the ring switch just fine
<core> all privilege checks succeed, as i don't get a GPF.. and then it reboots solid. NFI of what's happening :)
<Fare> core: just take it!
<core> fare: did it?
<Fare> core: did you set the call gates correctly?
<core> fare: is it on ftp.tunes.org ?
<Fare> core: yes it did.
<Fare> yup, in oldtunes
<core> fare: ok, i'll have a look at it, thanks :)
<Fare>  /pub/tunes/obsolete
<core> fare: you use call gates to switch to ring 3?
<Fare> core: wait!
<Fare> core: I don't remember, but it worked
<core> hmm :) ok, it'll be useful to have a look at your code anyway
<core> i will probably figure it out, but if your code works, why reinvent the wheel :)
<core> fare: do you know if the cpu reads anything from the TSS while switching to ring 3 (just doing that; not gating back to ring 0)
<Fare> see in paging.m4
<Fare> src.25/**/paging.m4
<Fare> not afaik
<core> ok.. just the time for me to download it :)
<Fare> oh, yes, it might get the SS:ESP from the correct ring field
11:40am
<tcn> yeah..
<core> not on what i'm doing (a return), and there is no SS:ESP for ring 3 anyway
<Fare> oh, ok, then
<tcn> Doesn't it save SS:ESP (from ring 0) in the TSS?
ωνω Oddity [d96-abo@spel10.nada.kth.se] has joined #tunes
<Fare> tcn: not afaik
<core> fare: i sent you email about your cvs access, that'll make things easier.. the repository misses a couple files to compile (that you have in the archive i sent, tho.. not checked then).. but i'll commit them tomorrow
<Fare> it just reads it during interrupts
<Fare> core: can you setup ssh?
<core> tcn: i don't think so; it always uses this value as a start pointer when entering ring 0
<core> fare: sure, it's already running, i just need an IP address to allow (tomorrow, can't do it from here)
<core> fare: why do you need ssh tho?
<Fare> core: to do cvs w/o being online
<Fare> core: w/o typing passwords
<core> fare: cvs stores passwords in .cvspass? :)
<Fare> core: hum
π Oddity/#tunes thinks kerberos is rather convenient...
<Fare> Od: except for distribution policy?
<Oddity> Fare: Huh? :)
<tcn> what's the policy?
<Oddity> Fare: CVS thing?
<Fare> core: what shall I checkout?
<core> fare: oh duh, i'm stupid. "os", sorry
<core> fare: this version misses a few files that i haven't finished (but they're in your archive :P), i'll commit them tomorrow anyway
<Fare> core: can you name them?
<core> fare: components/cpu/gate.c arch/ia32/cpu/procframe.h arch/ia32/cpu/procframe.c ..
<core> fare: that's mostly it i think
<core> fare: thanks for the makefiles improvements and the readme's etc btw, if you can keep them coming i'll be happy :)
<core> fare: sorry, procframe.[c|h] in components/cpu, not arch/ia32/cpu
11:50am
<Oddity> Fare: Oups, now i get it...
<Oddity> Fare: http://www.pdc.kth.se/kth-krb/ for a free kerberos
<Oddity> s/free/available over here
ωνω Nater1464 [nate@ppp030.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes
<Fare> core: grep -il 'lens ' $(find . -type f -print)
12:00pm
<core> fare: ack
<Fare> why LENS, btw?
<core> fare: it was some name andreas suggested, something like lightweight embeddable networked system (something like that :) but i liked clementine better ;)
<Nater1464> do any of you know of any free webpage services that DON'T require banner ads on your page.....or pop up new windows......
<core> nater1464: if it's for hosting an OSS project, sure, lots.
<Nater1464> nope....I'm trying to start up a gaming league...I've got 36 web pages with more on the way....and I'm looking for a place to put them up
<Nater1464> they're by no means done enough to go up.....just working on the framework of links and junk
<core> nater1464: well, there is www.chez.com, but it's in french.
<Nater1464> errrr...uhhhhh.....ummmmmm.......no
<core> no? oh well, your loss.
<Nater1464> thanx anyhow though
<core> sure
<Nater1464> I don't speak french dude
<Nater1464> I wish I had a damned server.....with a T1 connection....yeah...
<core> *shrug* well, just the registration is.. then you can upload your pages as usual. the server is in france tho, it might be on the slow side for you
<core> bah, T1 is small :P
<Nater1464> T3 would rock.....but it'd be overkill for what I need to do
<Oddity> babelfish the registration? :)
<core> heheh oddity
<Fare> French rules. When I was younger, I wanted my whole OS project to be in french (or alternatively, in latin).
<Nater1464> I want to learn latin
<core> fare: you can still achieve that ;)
12:10pm
<Oddity> Is there anything Tunes shouldn't do, except AI? :-)
<Oddity> Who owns CVS.org?
<Fare> It should make you pay for the right to use, modify, or redistribute it.
<Fare> s/should/shouldn't/
<core> oddity: whois cvs.org
<core> Tunes should correct the bugs in the hardware I am using as guinea pig (old mediagx/120mhz board)
<core> :)
<Fare> Tunes should turn lead into gold.
<Oddity> Fare: True. :)
<Fare> (by bombarding lead atoms with neutrons until they turn into gold)
<Oddity> core: It's not a bug, it's just a complication in the abstraction of the hardware. :)
<core> it should turn hydrogen into oxygen, so that my coworkers would do something useful at work :)
<Fare> (or maybe with alpha particles, instead?)
<Nater1464> gotta go, later folks
ωνω SignOff Nater1464: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Oddity> Whats a cow orker? :)
<core> oddity: someone who releases hydrogen into the offices.
<Oddity> core: The hardware will work if you include the bug in the abstraction...
<Oddity> core: Hehe. ok. :)
π Fare/#Tunes still received no feedback from his article. Is it so perfect that nothing is to be added or removed about it?
<core> oddity: oh, it works. it just does fun things, like sometimes not rebooting, or being confused between the IR keyboard and PS/2 keyboard ports
<core> fare: i forwarded it to several people who are interested in metaprogramming at the university of toulouse, expect some feedback :)
<tcn> Gotta go.. later..
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
12:20pm
<Fare> gotta go, too
ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear)
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12:30pm
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<macgyver> Hi, all!!
<macgyver> I have a problem with interrupts... some one has experience with it in PMODE ??
<macgyver> Where can I find help, abi??
<abi> i don't know, macgyver
<macgyver> The efnet.sto.telia.se, I can't access the server!!
ωνω SignOff macgyver: #TUNES (changing servers)
02:20pm
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Please welcome Open Projects Net's newest support channel, #freebsd, run by Misty Linville, aka 'misty'!  Remember to drop by if you are a freebsd user, and please, no religious discussions!  Thanks. :)
ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
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<Tril_> Your company has caused a Generally Accepted Accounting Practices Fault (GAAPF) and will be terminated
<_QZ> haha
06:10pm
<Tril_> _QZ have you done anything with clementine?
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
ωνω Tril_ is now known as Tril
<_QZ> like?
<_QZ> i booted it
<_QZ> it does nothing
<Tril> did you use any of the commands
<_QZ> ya
<_QZ> they dont do anything 
<Tril> it loads up modules and links their dependencies
<_QZ> u can see all the entries in the page tables
<Tril> you can allocate memory blocks and stuff
<_QZ> and page directory
<_QZ> why would i want to allocate memory?
<Tril> to see if it works
<Tril> does brix do any more than that?
<_QZ> yes
<Tril> what else?
<_QZ> brix has an fs and floppy access
<_QZ> brix has test programs 
<_QZ> that uca nrun
06:30pm
<Tril> why didn't u send me any of those
<_QZ> i sent u that copy to see the cpu detection
<_QZ> it was broke at the time
<_QZ> i didnt build the other stuff in to make it smaller and dcc faster :)
<Tril> how is brix progressing on your vacation?
<_QZ> uhh
<_QZ> my vacation was last week
<Tril> ok how did it progress last week
<_QZ> and i kinda wasted it trying to install E/gnome
<Tril> how was that supposed to help?
<_QZ> i finally gave up on E/gnome today
<_QZ> cuz it wont freakin install
<_QZ> well i got E installed but not gnome
06:40pm
ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb9si.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #tunes
<Tril> WB Ultima!!
<ultima> hey
<abi> what's up, ultima
<Tril> did you get stuff worked out with LiLo?
<ultima> lilo wants to bitch me out
<_QZ> ultima: are u the one lilo banned?
<ultima> Yeah
<ultima> one sec
<Tril> _QZ where did u hear about it?
<_QZ> hahah i heard him talking about a ban on an ultima
<_QZ> +w
<_QZ> he was talking to spice_soemthing about ban masks he had set
<ultima> Hahaha
<ultima> Er, wait, you dont go into #linpeople
<ultima> _QZ: Lilo flipped out 
<_QZ> over what?
<Tril> _QZ: Ultima questioned his power
<ultima> _QZ: We got in an argument
<ultima> Tril: Whoa, I did? Cool.
<Tril> told him to calm down and stop banning people
<_QZ> lilo said he thought it was just a misunderstanding
<Tril> from what ultima tells me, I wasn't there.
<_QZ> and would probably remove the ban
<Tril> I hoped he would come around.
<Tril> sounded kinda pointless to me
<ultima> A misunderstanding? Hehe, he told me off ;)
<Tril> I am glad
<Tril> that he is unbanning you not that he told you off
<ultima> wooo
<ultima> this sucks
<_QZ> i thought maybe there was another ultima or i woulda logged it
<ultima> no
<ultima> im the only ultima
<_QZ> hehe
<ultima> _QZ how did *you* find out though?
<Tril> sure there's another ultima, because you always used to have a _ at the end of your name, cuz someone was using "ultima".
<_QZ> i have +w set so i see wallops
<ultima> oooh
<_QZ>  /umode +w
<ultima> watching ircop conversations huh
<_QZ> ya
<ultima> Tril no
<ultima> that was a bot
<ultima> =)
<Tril> 1999.0106:!services10.openprojects.net!! PANIC! buffer = :ultima QUIT :Local kil
<Tril> l by lilo (problem_user)
<ultima> Yeah. Panic. Lilo flipped out! Run for your lives!
07:00pm
<Tril> 1999.0107:!lilo:*! I don't think this kid gets it, unfortunately *sighrin* 
<Tril> 1999.0107:!lilo:*! I better pull the ultima stuff, I think there were elements o
<Tril> f misunderstanding there
<Tril> 1999.0107:!lilo:*! or probably out and out goof on my part
<_QZ> Tril: thats the conversation
<Tril> you can find it in /pub/tunes/irc/1999.0107
<ultima> Yeah that about sums it up, he misunderstood the fact that he flipped out 
<ultima> woo
<ultima> X compiled
<ultima> fvwm compiled
<ultima> everything works
<ultima> life is good but it sucks
<_QZ> i wish gnome would compile
<ultima> Did I tell you that I got a cavity drilled and I think the dentist hit a damn root?
<ultima> And that I'm in an unspeakable amount of PAIN?
<Tril> _QZ what version do you need? I can send u a precompled tree of binaries :)
<ultima> _QZ: Gnome is crap
<_QZ> Tril: when compiling gnome-libs there is a file called convertrgb that is giving runtime errors
<_QZ> undefined symbol "gdk_threads_mutex"
<ultima> ROFL
<_QZ> unresolved
<ultima> _QZ using latest GTK/GDK?
<_QZ> 1.1.12
<_QZ> i tried both linuxthreads and pthreads
<_QZ> but it still gives that unresolved symbol
<_QZ> i have th elatest everything
<Tril> convert* is from the netpbm package. do you have netpbm
<ultima> downgrade
<_QZ> i tried downgrading gnome-lib
<_QZ> same problem
<_QZ> Tril: convertrgb comes with gnome-libs
<_QZ> gnome-libs/tools/convertrgb/
<ultima> downgrade gtk
<_QZ> i think gnome-libs 99.2 needs gtk 1.1.12
<ultima> point being?
<_QZ> atleast the step by step installtion says to use it
ωνω NMO [mcole@ppp-025.m2-1.brv.ican.net] has joined #TUNES
<ultima> _QZ advice...the step by step installation is wrong
<ultima> and badly so
<Tril> hey _QZ can you send me a scsi drive? I got a controller now.
<Tril> more importantly, can you send me some SCSI cables? they are dang expensive..
<_QZ> haha
<Tril> the installation for gnome is not so much wrong as incomplete and useless
<Tril> the reason I bring up the hd is that I don't have enough space to compile gnome :)   It took 400 megs last time
ωνω SignOff NMO: #TUNES (NMO has no reason)
<_QZ> the current gnome says 500-700meg
<ultima> SHIT
<_QZ> and 150meg for all the binaries
<ultima> 700 MEGZ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
<ultima> YER FUCKING JOKING
<ultima> du /usr/X11R6/src/xc
<Tril> ultima: source + object code + binaries
<ultima> after a full build of everything...
<ultima> including contrib and testsuite
07:10pm
<ultima> 235megs!
<ultima> HAHAHA
<ultima> its 2-3 times the size of X!
<ultima> I'm sorry, thats pathetic =)
<_QZ> Recommend about 600-700 MB of free space under /usr/local to
<_QZ>                            store sources, compile, and complete installation of Gnome.
<_QZ>                            You can get by with less if you clean up as you proceed. 
<Tril> yeah the 650 is counting the binaries twice.
<_QZ> ya
<ultima> Tril: Dude, like I said, 235 for X11 full build
<ultima> What does Gnome do that warrants 700mb build?
<_QZ> what is libungif?
<ultima> KDE islike 25 installed and 60 build
<Tril> good question ultima.. not that much yet, but it must be awful fun to program for
<_QZ> gnome is btter than kde
<ultima> _QZ: UHhhhhhhhhhh
<ultima> _QZ: Idont think so
<ultima> Tril: Hell no ;)
<ultima> Tril: Talk about a bloated API...
<ultima> Its everything Windows is and UNIX should never be =)
<Tril> I don't use kde because it takes up 32 megs of memory. I only have 32 megs of memory. that leaves no room for netscape.
<ultima> thats one thing I love about unix, the API rocks. You dont have to mess with different calls to open a file under dos, win16, win32
<ultima> Tril: Uhm, last time I used KDE, it ate about 20mb memory including Xserver
<ultima> and Xserver+twm is about 8megs
<_QZ> my X server uses 100meg
<Tril> ultima: depends what bit depth you use
<ultima> Tril: 24bpp here
<_QZ> right now its using 70meg
<ultima> _QZ: Damn, somethings wrong with ur puter
<_QZ> but in a few months it will be at 100meg
<ultima> that or your running something that Pixmap's the hellout of the server
<Tril> ultima: no, there isn't. He does that on purpose.
<Tril> it's called a very big screen and a lot of virtual desks
<_QZ> :)
<ultima> Tril: X with maybe 2 or 3 Pixmaps (twm) eats 8 megs
<ultima> Tril: a very big screen & virtual desks wont make 100meg
<_QZ> twm sucks
<ultima> Tril: cus only mapped windows are in memory,it doesnt matter how big your screen or virtual desks are
<ultima> twm owns
<_QZ> i have 40 windows open right now
<Tril> X is fine. it's only 6mb.  Kde has about 6 background processes, way too many.
<ultima> so?
<abi> so is, like, bin still helping with the web page
<_QZ> and i use accelX
<ultima> Oh. AccelX aka MemleaksX
<Tril> the funniest thing is that you run the yellow sticky notes in kde and it takes 5 megs of ram
<ultima> I've had AccelX eat 50mb 
<ultima> Tril uh, no?
<ultima> learn how to read ps
<ultima> That 5mb includes Qt, but thats shared between ALL processes =)
ωνω robrock [robwh@d172-237.ce.mediaone.net] has joined #tunes
<ultima> hey rob
<_QZ> 119 processes: 118 sleeping, 1 running, 0 zombie, 0 stopped
<ultima> rofl
<robrock> hey ultima
<ultima> _QZ is just a masochist ;)
07:20pm
<Tril> hi rob, are you into TUNES?
<robrock> TUNES ??
<abi> TUNES is probably in my head or tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system.
ωνω Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: The TUNES Channel http://www.tunes.org/ for the TUNES OS project
<ultima> Tril what is bepsin on?
<ultima> bespin even =)
<ultima> er
<ultima> Tril, did you die
<_QZ> i need some kinda small program that lets u add items to a visible list and open the file with pico when clicked on and maybe give some indication of whether or not the file is already open
<_QZ> items=files
<ultima> heh
<ultima> that'd be kinda eay
<ultima> easy even
<Tril> window maker :)
<Tril> ultima: I just got 10 lines from you all at once
<ultima> *** CTCP PING reply from Tril: 111.185349 seconds
<_QZ> same here
<ultima> Weird
<ultima> net.fsck
<_QZ> pause lag
<ultima> musta been a server desync
<ultima> cus abi is on my server and my ping to it is < 1sec
<Tril> qz: window maker's dock .. put the file on the dock and set it to only open one copy, then when it is open the icon will be grayed out.
<_QZ> Tril: i have like 100 files
<Tril> can't the dock grow that big?  :)
<Tril> add it to brix
<_QZ> i was thinking a text list of filenames
<ultima> heh
<_QZ> add what to brix?
<ultima> dude that would be like trivial actually
<_QZ> ultima: wanna write one for me?
<_QZ> :)
<ultima> _QZ: I cant. My system is barely functional ATM
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<_QZ> and if u could make the window auto hide at the top of my screen and drop down when the mouse goes up there that would be like great
<_QZ> :)
07:30pm
<Tril> if those 100 files are for brix, then you have a chicken egg problem
<_QZ> no i wanna put all the brix source/doc files in a list so i can get to them faster
<ultima> HAHAHAHAHAHHA
π ultima/#tunes is learning memory management
<ultima> damn
<ultima> this is easy
<_QZ> mm is easy
<ultima> hell yes it is...the tricky part is making sure the process doesnt realize whats going on
<ultima> Erm...I'm confused, shit..=)
<_QZ> eh?
<ultima> _QZ: In a binary, whats the cs, bss, ds, text segment and shit
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π ^lilo/#TUNES looks in
<ultima> How does that come into play 
<ultima> Hi lilo
<^lilo> hey ult
<_QZ> hello lilo
π ^lilo/#TUNES is having dinner, which unfortunately is a bit messy
<_QZ> lilo: ultima wants to be banned again
<Tril> hi lilo
π ultima/#tunes kicks _QZ
<^lilo> hi Tril
<ultima> Anyway _QZ, are those segments something special handled by the x86, or is that something I could just manage myself in the binary format?
<Tril> ultima: cs=code segment (code goes in it), ds=data segment (data goes in it), bss=stack (I think), text=symbols (maybe, dunno)
<_QZ> ultima: make them all the same
<ultima> Tril: Well, Yeah, I know that =)
π ^lilo/#TUNES nods
<ultima> _QZ: Now, what about protection then?
<^lilo> usually done with page/segment entries
<ultima> Shouldnt for example, code&data be read only
<^lilo> ultima: actually, that could be done
<Tril> Lilo:  what's up with lists.openprojects.net?  do you need another server?
<^lilo> code can be read only
<^lilo> Tril: we might, it's down right now
<ultima> Right now i'm using three segments for the kernel - code, data, and stack
<^lilo> Tril: we are slowly edging our way to setting it back up again :)
<Tril> I noticed.  You said you wanted another mailing list server.. I can probably handle the mail and lists and web archives traffic on my server ok
<ultima> code contains the compiled in data though, my 'data' segment is the rw stuff
<ultima> Tril What kind of connection is bespin on?
<ultima> Ethernet?
<_QZ> ultima: 2400baud
07:40pm
<Tril> it's hard to say, it's non-dedicated T1
<Tril> it's fine for e-mail :)
<ultima> Doesnt bespin == www2.tunes.org ?
<ultima> yes it does
<Tril> yep.. we don't get many hits :)
<ultima> hrm...should Ijust make a 4gb segment and then page as needed, or make a small one and grow it?
<Tril> for what the whole os?
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<Tril> tcn...hi!
<tcn> howdy
<Tril> what did you mean when you said you are "implementing" your prototype?
<Tril> you found a model for persistence?
<tcn> Yeah, I'm writing code for it.
07:50pm
<tcn> Don't get too excited, it's nothing fancy, it's just.. code.
<_QZ> tcn: how are u doing it? cuz i have a patent on my method and will sue to protect it :)
<Tril> no u don't
<_QZ> yes i do
<tcn> qz: I'm doing it, uhh, a different way :)
<Tril> why isn't your patent no. listed on the brix page
<_QZ> tcn: i dont think so
<ultima> _QZ why did you patent it
<_QZ> patent pending
<tcn> You can't patent a simple idea
<_QZ> its not simple
<^lilo> prior art
<tcn> You didn't invent it though ;)
<_QZ> yes i did
<ultima> What are you trying to patent?
<_QZ> its exclusive to brix
<ultima> persistance, or a specific set of algorithms that implement it?
<_QZ> ultima: about 20-30 different things in brix
<ultima> And have you checked with your company about your patents?
π ^lilo/#TUNES notes that it is well to explore prior art before filing patents, or other people will
<_QZ> what company?
<ultima> _QZ: Where you work
<_QZ> ultima: what does that matter
<ultima> _QZ: Because if your not EXTREMELY careful, they will own your patents
<_QZ> trust me they wont
<Tril> qnx has no virtual memory? Heh.
<_QZ> really?
<ultima> Tril its a real time OS
<ultima> vm is the antithesis of rt
<tcn> hehe
<Tril> tcn: what does this "code" of yours, do?  :-)
<tcn> VM is like persistent storage in reverse..
<Tril> no, vm is a ramdisk in reverse :)
<tcn> Tril: It *will* do persistent storage.
<Tril> do you use GUIDs?
<_QZ> tcn: how??
08:00pm
<tcn> qz: It's pretty straightforward
<tcn> It's trivial :)
<tcn> I'm still wondering if the 386 paging unit is any use for peristent storage
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> i have 2 x86 kernels, 1 with paging and 1 without, and both use the same persistent storage code
<tcn> qz: any non-x86 kernels?
<_QZ> not yet
<ultima> _QZ if I were to write a kernel with a persistant storage system, would I have to worry about your patents? =)
<_QZ> ultima: yes :)
<Tril> qz doesn't have any patents he's bluffing
<tcn> If he did they wouldn't stand up to a challenge
<tcn> It would be like patenting common sense
<_QZ> yes they would
<^lilo> the key to patent challenges is prior art
<_QZ> cuz u wouldnt have enuf money to goto court
<^lilo> QZ: hehe, you can always find a lawyer who's hungry for blood ;)
<_QZ> hehe
<_QZ> but can a 15 year old find one?
<tcn> Who's 15?
<_QZ> tcn: yer 15 right? :)
<tcn> Nah, that's lar1. I'm full grown :)
<_QZ> 16,17?
<^lilo> probably a 43-year-old could :)
<^lilo> depending on what you have applications for, it might be interesting :)
<tcn> Tril, GUID's?
08:10pm
<Tril> globally unique identifiers
<Tril> abi, the key to patent challenges?
<abi> the key to patent challenges is probably prior art
<Tril> abi, I'm still wondering if the 386 paging unit?
<abi> bugger all, i dunno, tril
<Tril> abi, vm?
<abi> vm is the antithesis of rt
<tcn> Suppose I did use the paging unit, and each object was 4k-aligned.. that would permit 16 TB of persistent storage.
<Tril> huh?
<ultima> tcn er?
<ultima> tcn you can get 4gb with 4k aligned pages
<Tril> 386 addresses 4GB, how would you fit 16tb
<tcn> 2^32 * 4096 = 16 trillion
<Tril> yes, you can store which page in the 16tb you mean, but you can't actually use the 386 pager to access anything using those numbers. you'd have to still work within the 4gb
<tcn> But if most objects were smaller than 4k, there'd be lots of wasted space
<ultima> tcn not really if you put multiple objects in a page
<tcn> We really should have something better.. and someone could build optimized hardware for it later
<tcn> .. something like a Symbolics LISP machine, or that Rekuriv thing that never came through..
<ultima> tcn well hardware isnt that big of a concern if you use a decent language
<tcn> ultima: For memory management, stuff like that..
<ultima> tcn: Heh, AXP isnt that bad
<tcn> For example, LISP machines usually had 36-bit RAM, with 4 bits used for data typing.. and the hardware handled types..
08:20pm
<tcn> ultima: till you look at the price
<_QZ> doesnt nasm have an undefine?
<ultima> tcn: They are most certainly reasonably priced
<ultima> You can get a moderate AXP for 2k =)
<tcn> hehe
<tcn> ultima: Is that for a chip, motherboard, or what?
<ultima> a whole system
<_QZ> u can get a 630mhz celeron for $180
<ultima> san monitor
<tcn> Not bad
<Tril> qz:I dunno what libungif is. uncompress gifs?
<ultima> libungif is a non-patented libgif implementation
<ultima> it doesnt support compression
<_QZ> Tril: u kinda lagged there?
π Tril/#tunes is not lagged, just remembered a quesiton was asked a long time ago and looked back to see what it was
<tcn> Last time I looked into getting an alpha, it was over $5000 for a machine
<_QZ> hehe
<tcn> hey Tril, you got any specs for persistent storage?
<Tril> i started writing notes about it...
<tcn> on computer?
<Tril> no :)
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<Tril> kelp..
<KeLp> hey
<Tril> what's up?
<abi> nuthin'....
<KeLp> got OpenBSD working on my sparc.  I'm stoaked
<ultima> Hehehe, now you get towatch it crash frequently
<Tril> when did you get a sparc?
<KeLp> about a month ago
<tcn> how?
<KeLp> I bet it will crash way less than Linux did
<KeLp> sparc linux sucked bad
<KeLp> how did I get it?
<ultima> kelp OpenBSD isk inda buggy
<ultima> its nice but its still in its early stages
<KeLp> ultima: you speak from personal experience?
<ultima> Kelp: yeah
π KeLp/#tunes has been running OpenBSD for about 6 months
<KeLp> I've had very few problems
<KeLp> but I have never run it in a mission critical high load environment
<ultima> Kelp: Well, truth be told, OBSD cant handle high loads
<KeLp> example?
<ultima> it runs nicely but once you start paging heavily or use high IO it chokes
<KeLp> and I probably agree with you....
<ultima> it'll lock solid in a lot of situations
<KeLp> yeah, I often have to nice down makes a lot
<ultima> (I wouldnt use it to run ftp.cdrom.com =)
<^lilo> ultima: aren't they using fbsd?
08:30pm
<KeLp> CTCP VERSION reply from KeLp: BitchX-75p1+ by panasync - OpenBSD 2.4 :
<KeLp>           Keep it to yourself!
<tcn> Well if OBSD fails there's always Slowaris :)
<^lilo> hehe :)
<ultima> lilo yes
<KeLp> ohh, wait
<KeLp> I thought I was in FreeBSD :)
<KeLp> FreeBSD rocks
<ultima> Yeah, FreeBSD is quite nice
08:40pm
<tcn> hehe.. /list #kde :)
<Tril> kelp, how big a disk would I need to install freebsd, netbsd, openbsd, debian and redhat
<KeLp> umm
<KeLp> depends
<KeLp> if you want to build *BSDs from source
<KeLp> they each need a lot
<Tril> why do I need to do that?
<KeLp> like 1GB or more for user
<KeLp> its how you upgrade
<KeLp> well, its how I upgrade
<Tril> what do you mean for user
<KeLp>  /usr
<KeLp> sorry
<Tril> Each?
<Tril> thats 5 GB ?
<Tril> 3 gb..
<KeLp> linux should need less
<Tril> no let's say I don't want to build from the source, for now
08:50pm
<KeLp> also where is your /home coming from?
<KeLp> do you need X?
<Tril> no source at all. all binaries, is it possible?  
<KeLp> yeah
<ultima> I bet you could use all your linux sw under BSD, just have base BSD installed
<KeLp> but do you want X?
π ultima/#tunes sighs
<ultima> too many dang channels!
<Tril>  /home?? I just want to test all these OSes, why do i need /home?
<KeLp> but you need the linux software either staticaly linked, or need to have all the linux shared libs in each BSD
<KeLp> you need some home
<Tril> which one is best to run X under?
<KeLp> so you can put your .bash* stuff
<KeLp> all work fine
<KeLp> I'm running X in OpenBSD now
<KeLp> earlier I was runnning it in FreeBSD
<KeLp> but, if you only want to run X in one
<KeLp> and leave X off the rest
<KeLp> and have a very small /home
<Tril> so I could put my linux shared libs in their own partition? how would i share fs
<Tril> UFS is read-only in linux
<KeLp> well, if you really want to test each OS, you shouldn't do that
<KeLp> I would give each OS 600MB
<KeLp> I have OpenBSD on a 411MB HD in my Sparc
<KeLp> but /home is nfs mounted
<ultima> well
<ultima> it gets tight in 600mb
<KeLp> yes
<KeLp> I'm thinking about buying a 1 or 2GB drive for this Sparc
<ultima> u cant do a full rebuild in 600, can you?
<KeLp> no
<KeLp> you can't
<ultima> I didnt think so. What I'd do is make some maybe 200mb's for each of the BSD's 
<ultima> and maybe 500 for the linuxes
<KeLp> if you have all the source, including X, it will take over a GB
<ultima> then a big partition that can share /home and the different 'sys' dirs
<KeLp> 200MB would be very very tight
<KeLp> sharing home will be tricky
<ultima> kelp: Tricky, yes, impossible, no
<KeLp> it would have to be ext2fs
<KeLp> I would just buy more HDs
<ultima> likely
<KeLp> they are cheap
<ultima> how much total space do you have?
<KeLp> me?
<KeLp> one sec
<ultima> no, tril =)
<KeLp> I have 11.8 GB :)  But that counts the 3.2GB on my NFS server
<ultima> heh
<ultima> lucky u
<ultima> do you use it all?
<KeLp> I need more
<ultima> Erm, what do you have?
<KeLp> I have 4 OSs on this box
<ultima> Oh
<ultima> Heh
<ultima> =)
<KeLp> Debian/OpenBSD/FreeBSD/Win98
<ultima> 2g a pop?
<KeLp> yeah
<KeLp> and home is nfs mounted
<ultima> nod
<KeLp> the BSDs need that much
<KeLp> I took some away from Debian to install games on in Windows
<ultima> Hehe
<KeLp> partition magic 4 is cool :)
<ultima> Kelp, whats a good 3.0-CURRENT CVS server?
<KeLp> I want to install Solaris again
<KeLp> umm
<ultima> hehehe
<KeLp> cvsup2.freebsd.org
<KeLp> cvsup.freebsd.org is usualy full
<ultima> wot would a good CVSROOT be
<KeLp> use cvsup
<KeLp> not cvs
<KeLp> cvsup is way better
<ultima> ummmm
<ultima> why?
<KeLp> it just seems to work faster for me
<Tril> is 142ms on an 8gb hdd a typo?
09:00pm
<KeLp> yes
<KeLp> is that the access?
<Tril> I guess it should be 14 or 12 but I am not sure which.
<KeLp> 14 is very very slow
<KeLp> 12 is not great either
<ultima> erm, 12ms?
<ultima> Heheh
<ultima> avg is like 9.5 nowadays
<Tril> I'm assuming it's 12 then
<KeLp> is it a 5.25" drive?
<Tril> yes .. 
<ultima> ah...
<KeLp> thats why its soo slow
<Tril> but it's $149
<KeLp> go to www.killerapp.com and www.pricewatch.com
<Tril> it's on pricewatch :)
π ultima/#tunes growls
<ultima> Tril: Is it a western digital?
<tcn> haHAH
<ultima> WD Caviar?
<KeLp> or a qunatum?
<Tril> that was the quantum
<KeLp> quantum rather
<tcn> Everybody's been having trouble with WD's lately 
<KeLp> Bigfoot?
<ultima> tcn: Eh?
<tcn> Oh, a bunch of my friends have had WD drives crashing on them
<_QZ> tcn: all my drives are wd and i have no problems
<KeLp> AlKader had a BigFoot die on him
<KeLp> I have a Quantum Fireball slowly shitting on me
<ultima> well hmm some people just are unlucky
<_QZ> tcn: cept when i pulled that one out with power on and shorted out the control board on the case :)
<ultima> cus i've always had good luck with WD/Seagate, some people hate them
<tcn> QZ: Yeah, I have a 10 year old WD that still works fine
<_QZ> tcn: but wd took it back and gave me a new one
<ultima> I've never had a Maxtor last more than a year
<KeLp> I need to get SCSI
<KeLp> bad
<tcn> Wonder what I've got in this thing anyway...
<KeLp> I beat on my drives pretty hard
<_QZ> maxtor sucks
<_QZ> quantum sucks
<Tril> I have a buncha maxtor drives that are ancient.. no problem
<tcn> I've got a NEC and a Conner
<_QZ> toshiba sucks
<KeLp> any one have a working 1GB SCSI-1 drive they don't want?
<KeLp> I need on
<_QZ> i have a 2gig digital scsi drive
<tcn> I used to have a 286 with a Seagate 30MB.. every time the HD stopped, I had to flip it over and reconnect the circuit trace :) Then the computer would come back to life.. 
<_QZ> not scsi1
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<_QZ> tcn: nice box :)
<tcn> qz: Those were the days.. haha.. 
<Tril> I had an XT with 10M that I ran doorway on to let people call up and go to dos and format it
09:10pm
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ωνω KeLp_ is now known as KeLp
<_QZ> any1 heard of EPoX?
<_QZ> motherboards
π ultima/#tunes growls
<KeLp> ?
<tcn> qz: Never heard of 'em
<_QZ> if the celeron 400's at this place are oc'able then this machine will be doing 630mhz tomorrow night at this time
<tcn> I've never seen an overclocked machine that didn't fuck up constantly
<tcn> just luck, I guess
<_QZ> uhh
<_QZ> this machine is a p233mmx running at 262
<_QZ> my celeron300a is running at 472/105
<_QZ> my p75 at 90
<_QZ> my k6-166 at 200
<_QZ> and they all work fine
<tcn> 472/105? Is the CPU always waiting for the bus?
<_QZ> my celeron does have a 12" oscillating fan blowing on it
<tcn> haha
<tcn> room heater :)
<_QZ> hehe
<_QZ> not really
09:20pm
<_QZ> it barely gets hot without the fan
<_QZ> my p233 has about 4 4" case fans
<tcn> Pretty soon computers will be interfering with cellphones, then microwave comm, then (yeah!) traffic radar
<_QZ> i like things to run cool
<Tril> tcn: microwave transmissions are line of sight, interference is only from flying objects :)
<tcn> My 133 screws with FM radio
<_QZ> http://www.europa.com/~dogman/install.html
<_QZ> thats one ugly guy
<Tril> I'm having trouble interpreting the dance.
<tcn> Oh, I was using lynx. I wondered what was so damn funny
<Tril> tcn: look at the title
<_QZ> Tril: it has pictures
<tcn> qz: interpretive dance?
<Tril> _QZ I see the pictures you mean tcn
π tcn/#tunes is glad he's using lynx
09:30pm
<Tril> qz did you go to that page for the potato gun
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> whats the url?
<Tril> click on home
<tcn> allright, I'm firing up netscrape
<tcn> Where's the pototo gun?
<Tril> i closed the browser
<_QZ> oh my god
<_QZ> dont hit his home link
π tcn/#tunes is sorry he used netscape
<_QZ> there's a picture of a naked santa
<tcn> I'll turn off images
<_QZ> Bobbing for squid in a vat of anti-freeze.
<tcn> oh yeah, one of my fellow engineering students made a potato gun.. said it kicked reeal hard
<tcn> where's the squid vat?
09:40pm
ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> gotta go
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[hh154ws31.hh154lab.wwu.edu]: EOF from client)
<tcn> Sounds like a plan :)
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
09:50pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0112
IRC log ended Tue Jan 12 00:00:00 1999